Restricted $500,000 Jefferson Davis chair stolen in Selma will be a toilet unless Confederate group hangs banner, email claims

Andersonh1

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What the last few years have shown me is that people like the ones who have stolen and damaged this memorial, despite claiming to hold the moral high ground, are actually the crude, vulgar, disrespectful and morally questionable individuals, rather than the people they are criticizing. The vandals have no respect for anyone or anything, the dead included (they stole this chair from a cemetery, remember) and I for one will not be lectured by them on what is moral, on what I should believe, or about historical injustice.
 

Booklady

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There is an interesting essay on the arrogance and judgmentalism involved in this kind of iconoclasm here: https://thefederalist.com/2021/04/08/why-the-iconoclastic-left-are-on-the-wrong-side-of-history/

From the article:
...[A]s Americans search our national heritage for help in solving modern problems, we should embrace humility, not hubris. Being on “the right side of history,” as the awakened often say, does not mean being on the left side of history. It means realizing that our past, like our present, is imperfect. Approaching it with condescending arrogance, as the woke movement does, merely highlights the smallness of the examiners.

Edmund Burke observed that human society is a contract between “those who are living, those who are dead, and those who are to be born,” and urged citizens to beware those who “should act as if they were the entire master.” In that spirit we should ponder American history as a pursuit of political participation, individual equality, constitutional order, social opportunity, and economic freedom, however imperfectly realized and full of ambiguities it has been.

We should celebrate what is worthy in our past and chastise what is reprehensible. We should submit our history to rigorous, fair-minded analysis and see what it can tell us about the human condition and how we got where we are.

This important task demands thoughtful examination and nuanced judgments, not a frenzied kangaroo court convened by wokesters jacked up on ideological amphetamines and spouting slogans. Confronting the imperfections of the past — as well as the human beings who inhabited it — should heighten an awareness not of our superiority but our shortcomings. In the end, such a careful investigation of history can provide the key inspiration for us to overcome them.
 

Andersonh1

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There is an interesting essay on the arrogance and judgmentalism involved in this kind of iconoclasm here: https://thefederalist.com/2021/04/08/why-the-iconoclastic-left-are-on-the-wrong-side-of-history/

From the article:
This important task demands thoughtful examination and nuanced judgments, not a frenzied kangaroo court convened by wokesters jacked up on ideological amphetamines and spouting slogans. Confronting the imperfections of the past — as well as the human beings who inhabited it — should heighten an awareness not of our superiority but our shortcomings. In the end, such a careful investigation of history can provide the key inspiration for us to overcome them.

Yes, exactly. I've often thought that the iconoclasts today may well be the most self-righteous generation in the history of this country, busy looking down their nose at the rest of us in the present day and certainly at those who lived in the past.
 

privateflemming

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California, USA
What a terrible act of vandalism!
All one has to do is look at the twitter feed and the comments and replies to see the ongoing example of the ill will toward the UDC.
This has nothing to do with the Civil War or history. The people making fun of these situations and the good woman in the organization is not beneficial or helpful. This lack of integrity tells more about the people who did this and the online posters who mock the UDC and support these actions than it does the women who have risked bullying, doxing and the threats to their well being.

I highly doubt there will be a statement from the UDC. The restoration and care of the Memorial building is ongoing and keeping everyone quite busy, while online bloggers and twitter people have fun at the organization's expense. Remember, this is attacking women - mothers and daughters, sisters and grandmothers. Shame on them.

I think they brought that ill will on themselves as tireless supporters of the Lost Cause who justify slavery and venerated the KKK. They're a terrible, terrible organization and I for one have absolutely no sympathy for them or their chair.
 

Viper21

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What a terrible act of vandalism!
All one has to do is look at the twitter feed and the comments and replies to see the ongoing example of the ill will toward the UDC.
This has nothing to do with the Civil War or history. The people making fun of these situations and the good woman in the organization is not beneficial or helpful. This lack of integrity tells more about the people who did this and the online posters who mock the UDC and support these actions than it does the women who have risked bullying, doxing and the threats to their well being.

I highly doubt there will be a statement from the UDC. The restoration and care of the Memorial building is ongoing and keeping everyone quite busy, while online bloggers and twitter people have fun at the organization's expense. Remember, this is attacking women - mothers and daughters, sisters and grandmothers. Shame on them.
What the last few years have shown me is that people like the ones who have stolen and damaged this memorial, despite claiming to hold the moral high ground, are actually the crude, vulgar, disrespectful and morally questionable individuals, rather than the people they are criticizing. The vandals have no respect for anyone or anything, the dead included (they stole this chair from a cemetery, remember) and I for one will not be lectured by them on what is moral, on what I should believe, or about historical injustice.
I'm not sure who I'm more disgusted by. There's three different groups or classes of people who are responsible in my opinion. Obviously the folks carrying out these despicable acts. However, as I have said multiple times, the politicians who allow this type of behavior to go unpunished have only encouraged more of it. They'll sing a different tune, if the shoe is ever on the other foot.

I'm probably the most disgusted by the folks on twitter, & social media who are known in the civil war community, & are laughing & grandstanding. They too, share some responsibility for encouraging this type of behavior. The nice thing is, these folks have shown their true colors recently. Especially in the last year or so.

I hate to sound like a broken record but, there are unintended consequences of actions like this being encouraged, & left unpunished. The folks laughing right now, haven't thought this stuff all the way through, & will eventually regret where things end up. They'll of course have their hands in the air, with a look of astonishment, & claim no responsibility for getting us there.......
 

Andersonh1

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New details. These "pranksters" have now returned the chair. They made a fake one so it would look like they damaged the original, according to the story.

https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.co...gF_XpG5jCwDFKXUdIpIsIc5Gsb2UELyzBBMiC4CjX_L-U

A monument dedicated in the memory of Confederate President Jefferson Davis has been returned undamaged, despite the group behind the theft disseminating pictures that suggested otherwise.​
-----------------​
"Obviously, we had always intended to return the chair," according to their email. "We had started on fabricating the replica long before we acquired the original, and for this project to work, we had to be sure that the UDC would decline to hang our banner, thus the Assata Shakur quote, which also doubled as our grand thesis about why the Confederate Monuments debate is so absurd."​

And of course, they are quite confident that the police will do nothing to them, which should surprise no one at this point.

The group said it was not concerned about any charges that might come from the incident.​
"As for any charges stemming from this action, we currently have white supremacists storming the Capitol in Washington DC and killing cops. This is a victimless crime," the group said. "The only thing hurt here were feelings. We suspect after all is said and done, the authorities will choose to spend their time on something worthwhile."​
 

Viper21

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"As for any charges stemming from this action, we currently have white supremacists storming the Capitol in Washington DC and killing cops. This is a victimless crime," the group said. "The only thing hurt here were feelings. We suspect after all is said and done, the authorities will choose to spend their time on something worthwhile."
:stomp:

Hopefully the authorities in Alabama make an example out of these folks. I won't hold my breath.

People have gone to jail for less.
 
:stomp:

Hopefully the authorities in Alabama make an example out of these folks. I won't hold my breath.

People have gone to jail for less.

The theft of an item with a value over $2,500 in Alabama is a Class B felony that carries a 2 - 20 year sentence. With the return of the undamaged chair, the crime has not been negated, it was still committed. In reality, right or wrong, IMHO, there is no prosecutor that's going to spend the time or money to bring charges against anyone in this incident that will have to go before a 12 person jury.
 

Viper21

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The theft of an item with a value over $2,500 in Alabama is a Class B felony that carries a 2 - 20 year sentence. With the return of the undamaged chair, the crime has not been negated, it was still committed. In reality, right or wrong, IMHO, there is no prosecutor that's going to spend the time or money to bring charges against anyone in this incident that will have to go before a 12 person jury.
I agree that it won't be prosecuted. Which only encourages more of this type of behavior.

Eventually the double standard will be on full display when a monument favored by the removal/destruction/desecration crowd, is targeted.
 
I agree that it won't be prosecuted. Which only encourages more of this type of behavior.

Eventually the double standard will be on full display when a monument favored by the removal/destruction/desecration crowd, is targeted.

In a way it already has but not with the same outcome. Recall the incidents where an activist group painted their group's initials on a number of public streets in a few different cities that were then removed by others who protested that group. The individuals who removed the painted letters from the public street were arrested and charged.
 

AshleyMel

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Oct 26, 2016
I think they brought that ill will on themselves as tireless supporters of the Lost Cause who justify slavery and venerated the KKK. They're a terrible, terrible organization and I for one have absolutely no sympathy for them or their chair.
Thanks for proving my point. :nah disagree:
Opinion is noted.

These are the types of posts as why there is such discord.
Lost Causers! KKK! Terrible people! No sympathy!
The UDC Objections are clearly stated on our public web page.
Let me be clear again. Because as this is a public forum, these conversation can have real world consequences.
By being a member of the UDC - I am not a tireless supporter or the Lost Cause. I do not venerate the KKK (In fact, I condemn them - don't think they would like me very much at all, and it is an insult to the Black and women of color, like myself, who are members of the organization to say that we do). What I (and others) do, is donate our time and resources to support our veterans, care for the graves of the deceased and offer support for many, many charities and community services.

I can not speak for UDC General but I highly doubt, there were any hurt feeling at all.
This was an action taken by a group that has a modern political agenda.
Bless their heart.
 
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Andersonh1

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So, people have actually been arrested. If this case proceeds like cases from other monuments in other states, a judge will let them off with no fine and no jail time. Still, the police are doing their job, so good for them.

https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/...eans/289-5be4b544-65e4-4c2f-94d5-b6f469455365

New Orleans police arrested two people and are searching for a third in connection to a Confederate monument stolen from Old Live Oak Cemetery in Selma, Ala.​
According to NOPD, Alabama's Dallas County Sheriff's Office received a tip that the concrete chair, known as the Jefferson Davis Memorial Chair, was in New Orleans.​
Police found the chair near the corner of Feliciana and North Galvez Streets on Thursday, April 8, seemingly undamaged. Police say the monument has since been returned to its owners.​
 

Pete Longstreet

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I wouldn't blame the police. They take their marching orders from the local mayor/supervisor and council/twp. board.
You are correct. A police department is very political. And when it becomes political, cops go into survival mode. That's why your seeing cities burn and crimes going unpunished. It's all about surviving this political climate, hoping it begins to move in the other direction. In today's society, criminals are empowered and the law abiding tax payer is taking the hit. I can almost guarantee the people in this case will walk away with no fine and charges dropped. Thus proving my point, they become empowered and back onto the streets, more powerful (in their own mind) than before.
 

privateflemming

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Thanks for proving my point. :nah disagree:
Opinion is noted.

These are the types of posts as why there is such discord.
Lost Causers! KKK! Terrible people! No sympathy!
The UDC Objections are clearly stated on our public web page.
Let me be clear again. Because as this is a public forum, these conversation can have real world consequences.
By being a member of the UDC - I am not a tireless supporter or the Lost Cause. I do not venerate the KKK (In fact, I condemn them - don't think they would like me very much at all, and it is an insult to the Black and women of color, like myself, who are members of the organization to say that we do). What I (and others) do, is donate our time and resources to support our veterans, care for the graves of the deceased and offer support for many, many charities and community services.

I can not speak for UDC General but I highly doubt, there were any hurt feeling at all.
This was an action taken by a group that has a modern political agenda.
Bless their heart.

You know what else is stated on the UDC's public webpage? Their official "catechism" outlining all their beliefs about the war. This catechism to this day states that "The slaves were treated, in most cases, with kindness and care. Many claims of cruelty and abuse were found to be the behavior of planation overseers rather than the slaves' owners," and that "Slaves were, for the most part, faithful and devoted. Most slaves were usually ready and wiling to serve their masters." That's clearly very blatant slavery apologism and an attempt to justify the institution of chattel slavery. They even built monuments dedicated to these supposed "loyal and contented slaves," and in 1926 they constructed a monument praising the KKK in North Carolina.

You say my post pointing this out is why there is so much discord but how can you dismiss all these things I've pointed out about what the UDC does as not to blame? How can you take no responsibility for what the official publications of the UDC state to this day as a member? Can't you see how that seems disingenuous and hypocritical?

I'm really trying to be fair here. Maybe you think I'm painting the UDC with too broad a brush, but can you not at least see where those who have problems with the UDC (because they oppose the Lost Cause, slavery, and the KKK) are coming from given the UDC's past and current statements and actions in support of those things?
 

19thGeorgia

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You know what else is stated on the UDC's public webpage? Their official "catechism" outlining all their beliefs about the war. This catechism to this day states that "The slaves were treated, in most cases, with kindness and care. Many claims of cruelty and abuse were found to be the behavior of planation overseers rather than the slaves' owners," and that "Slaves were, for the most part, faithful and devoted. Most slaves were usually ready and wiling to serve their masters." That's clearly very blatant slavery apologism and an attempt to justify the institution of chattel slavery.
Is that the current catechism?...or something published in the late 1800s/early 1900s?

"in 1926 they constructed a monument praising the KKK in North Carolina."

Do you have a photo of it?
 

privateflemming

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Is that the current catechism?...or something published in the late 1800s/early 1900s?

"in 1926 they constructed a monument praising the KKK in North Carolina."

Do you have a photo of it?

I don't own all the editions myself to personally look at them but it was indeed the current edition that stated this as of 2018 as cited in this article and others. An earlier edition said that slaves were "always" ready and willing to serve their masters but it was tweaked over the years to now say "usually."

"The war, reads a text from 1904, was caused by the “disregard, on the part of the States of the North, for the rights of the Southern or slave-holding States.” And slaves “were faithful and devoted and were always ready and willing to serve them.”

The language has been tweaked over the years. In the version currently promoted on the UDC website, that last statement now reads: “Slaves, for the most part, were faithful and devoted. Most slaves were usually ready and willing to serve their masters.”"


Here is a good article about the 1926 KKK monument, as well as showing numerous other quotes from the UDC in praise of the KKK and racism. The monument seems to have disappeared in 2015 and I can't find a picture but this is what it said:

"IN COMMEMORATION OF THE "KU KLUX KLAN" DURING THE RECONSTRUCTION PERIOD FOLLOWING THE "WAR BETWEEN THE STATES" THIS MARKER IS PLACED ON THEIR ASSEMBLY GROUND. THE ORIGINAL BANNER (AS ABOVE) WAS MADE IN CABARRUS COUNTY.

ERECTED BY THE DODSON-RAMSEUR CHAPTER OF THE UNITED DAUGHTERS OF THE CONFEDERACY. 1926"
 
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