Golden Thread 5 Generals Were Promoted to Lt Gen of the CSA On Oct 10th, 1862 Longstreet was #1 and Jackson #4

War Horse

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Urgh, I think he sounds awful but I'm afraid that is how a German accent sounds to you. Many Germans have difficulties with the "th" as we don't have that, so they use "z" instead.
"Zat" sounds awful, even to my German ears! Ans moreover most of us speak "st" as in "Stuart" not as "s" and "t" but as "sh" and "t", so he says "Shtuart". In fact in northern Germany more people say e.g. s-trawberries and that is considered being arrogant. Stout Germans say shtrawberries! And the way he says "generaal" is how the word, which is the same as ours, is pronounced in German. I always found it remarkable that Stuart and von Borcke were so close, given the difficulties of the different language. But it seems great minds recognize each other across the language barrier!



Now that is a teaser! Never heard of that! Would you abuse your own thread in so far as to tell? Or tell elsewhere and give the link? They must have been strange bedfellows!!

"When JEB Stuart rode across a countryside, noise seemingly encircled him. He was "never quite, never depressed," always whistling, singing, or laughing, wrote Henry Kyd Douglas of Stonewall Jackson's staff. When the cavalryman came to their camp, he "was generally afar off." In the weeks after the campaign in Maryland, Jackson and his aides probably could distinguish his approach as Stuart visited often with his friend at the latter's headquarters near Bunker Hill, Virginia. The recent campaigns of Second Manassas and Sharpsburg in which Stuart served closely with Jackson surely deepened the bond between them. "The intimacy between these tow officers, so dissimilar in respect," asserted Douglas, "was the cause of much comment---they seemed to have so little in common. . . .But Jackson's "fondness for Stuart was very great, and it was cordially reciprocated. Their meeting after a temporary absence was affectionate and brotherly in the extreme." Like a brother, Stuart eased the reticent and reserved Jackson and took liberties with him that no one else dared. One night Stuart arrived at headquarters when Jackson and his aides were asleep. He entered Jackson's tent, unbuckled his saber belt, and crawled into bed beside his friend. the net morning when Jackson appeared at the campfire, Stuart greeted him, "Good morning, General Jackson, how are you?" Looking at his friend Jackson replied: "General Stuart, I am always glad to see you here. You might select better hours sometimes, but I am always glad to have you." Pausing, rubbing his leg, and managing to elicit the humor so well hidden inside, Jackson added, "But, General you must not get into my bed with your boots and spurs on and ride me around like a cavalry horse all night!"

It was at Bunker Hill that Stuart sent his present of a new uniform coat to Jackson. Stuart Sent Von Borcke to present the coat to Jackson personally and to not leave until he saw with his own eyes that Jackson had actually tried the finely tailored coat on. Jackson attempted to just admire the garment without trying it on but Von Borcke protested insisting he had orders not to leave until he saw with his own eyes that Jackson had tried it on and it fit him. So Jackson tried the jacket on and it fit perfectly. Even when Stuart was not present he had some strange influence over Jackson. A remarkable relationship between these two very different men.

Source: Cavalryman of the Lost Cause by Jeffry D. Wert
 
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War Horse

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All are welcome to consult the listing of Confederate Generals and their biographs, which include their promotions and ranks. Its in the "Sticky" Folders.

That said, I also listed the Union Generals as well -- in a different sticky folder.

As far as rank goes, the Confederate Army was created on the same format as the "Old Army" for speed's sake, however; it was stream lined a lot and the structure of rank was broader. Most of these "generals" in the Old Army, did not hold a General's rank, with the exception of one--and, he was slighted when others obtained a higher rank than he held in the Old Army.

Robert E. Lee was a Colonel in the Old Army, at the time of his resignation. Samuel Cooper, Adjutant-General in the Old Army was a full Colonel as well--promotions were far and few between. It just wasn't that big of an Army before the war broke out. With the hard to reach rank of General--I can only assume it was used as a carrot to lure those who hesitated to resign their Old U.S. Army Commission, their pensions to become into question should they resign and be defeated...might be loosing their pensions in addition to being executed for treason, etc.

Samuel Cooper was the first full General promoted and would be senior to all other Generals, to include Lee. One may observe the Confederate General rankings were two steps higher than the Union's (Old Army).

Winfield Scott, was holding the Brevet rank of Lieutenant-General. So, being an honorary rank --he was able to be addressed as Lieutenant-General; and was the Commanding General of all the Armies of the United States, until his resignation. Only when Lincoln found Grant to be the correct man for the job, Lincoln had to resurrect General George Washington's rank of Lieutenant-General, due to Major-General Halleck's seniority and of course the personality conflicts between Grant and Halleck, going back to the battlefields in the Western theater. Lincoln had to make Grant highest in rank so that Halleck had to be obedient to Grant--plain and simple.

Another differences in the CSA and USA military rank structure; the CSA did not use the brevet rank with the exception of brevet second lieutenant --which was a means to promote someone from non-commissioned officer into a commissioned officer's slot until that individual could be properly and fully commissioned--passing his exams.

The USA military continued to use Brevet rank through WWI.

During the Civil War, an additional measure of rankings, was that a person could hold two commissions -- Their Regular Army Rank and a Volunteer Army Rank. Usually, the Regulars wore the highest rank possible, as they were often put in charge of State Volunteer Troops. Majority of Union Generals would have dual commissions. Once the War was over, many were reverted to their old U.S. Army Regular Rank, such as demonstrated by George A. Custer. Some were promoted to the same as their volunteer commission, which was a form of gratitude and--continued extended services to oversee the transfer back to civilian control over disputed states and territories.

Just my thoughts, observations, comments and opinions,
M. E. Wolf

Most excellent information; Thank you very much M. E. Wolf excellent as always!
 
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"When JEB Stuart rode across a countryside, noise seemingly encircled him. He was "never quite, never depressed," always whistling, singing, or laughing, wrote Henry Kyd Douglas of Stonewall Jackson's staff. When the cavalryman came to their camp, he "was generally afar off." In the weeks after the campaign in Maryland, Jackson and his aides probably could distinguish his approach as Stuart visited often with his friend at the latter's headquarters near Bunker Hill, Virginia. The recent campaigns of Second Manassas and Sharpsburg in which Stuart served closely with Jackson surely deepened the bond between them. "The intimacy between these tow officers, so dissimilar in respect," asserted Douglas, "was the cause of much comment---they seemed to have so little in common. . . .But Jackson's "fondness for Stuart was very great, and it was cordially reciprocated. Their meeting after a temporary absence was affectionate and brotherly in the extreme." Like a brother, Stuart eased the reticent and reserved Jackson and took liberties with him that no one else dared. One night Stuart arrived at headquarters when Jackson and his aides were asleep. He entered Jackson's tent, unbuckled his saber belt, and crawled into bed beside his friend. the net morning when Jackson appeared at the campfire, Stuart greeted him, "Good morning, General Jackson, how are you?" Looking at his friend Jackson replied: "General Stuart, I am always glad to see you here. You might slect better hours sometimes, but I am always glad to have you." Pausing, rubbing his leg, and managing to elicit the humor so well hidden inside, Jackson added, "But, General you must not get into my bed with your boots and spurs on and ride me around like a cavalry horse all night!"

It was at Bunker Hill that Stuart sent his present of a new uniform coat to Jackson. Stuart Sent Von Borcke to present the coat to Jackson personally and to leave until he saw with his own eyes that Jackson had actually tried the finely tailored coat on. Jackson attempted to just admire the garment without trying it on but Von Borcke protested insisting he had orders not to leave until he saw with his own eyes that Jackson had tried it on and it fit him. So Jackson tried the jacket on and it fit perfectly. Even when Stuart was present he had some strange influence over Jackson. A remarkable relationship between these two very different men.

Source: Cavalryman of the Lost Cause by Jeffry D. Wert
Aw, thank you for that charming story!! It sheds a very favourable light on both generals! The always smiling and cheering "Shtuart" of course was always "the boy everybody loved" but I had never thought that Jackson would have let anybody come so close in every sense of the word. That story is a true gem, thanks for sharing!!
 
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Georgia Sixth

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Urgh, I think he sounds awful but I'm afraid that is how a German accent sounds to you.

My ex-wife has many relatives in the München region, and this accent didn't sound true to what I was familiar with. I was just curious what you thought. I love the scenery in Bavaria, but I much prefer the plattdeutsch further north!
 
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My ex-wife has many relatives in the München region, and this accent didn't sound true to what I was familiar with. I was just curious what you thought. I love the scenery in Bavaria, but I much prefer the plattdeutsch further north!
To tell the truth I believe that no foreigner is able to understand Bavarian German, I scarcely understand it myself. Plattdeutsch has very much in common with English, but my favourite is Berlin-ish. I simply love to hear Berliners talk. So von Borcke being a Prussion would have very much sounded like that!
 

Northern Light

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"When JEB Stuart rode across a countryside, noise seemingly encircled him. He was "never quite, never depressed," always whistling, singing, or laughing, wrote Henry Kyd Douglas of Stonewall Jackson's staff. When the cavalryman came to their camp, he "was generally afar off." In the weeks after the campaign in Maryland, Jackson and his aides probably could distinguish his approach as Stuart visited often with his friend at the latter's headquarters near Bunker Hill, Virginia. The recent campaigns of Second Manassas and Sharpsburg in which Stuart served closely with Jackson surely deepened the bond between them. "The intimacy between these tow officers, so dissimilar in respect," asserted Douglas, "was the cause of much comment---they seemed to have so little in common. . . .But Jackson's "fondness for Stuart was very great, and it was cordially reciprocated. Their meeting after a temporary absence was affectionate and brotherly in the extreme." Like a brother, Stuart eased the reticent and reserved Jackson and took liberties with him that no one else dared. One night Stuart arrived at headquarters when Jackson and his aides were asleep. He entered Jackson's tent, unbuckled his saber belt, and crawled into bed beside his friend. the net morning when Jackson appeared at the campfire, Stuart greeted him, "Good morning, General Jackson, how are you?" Looking at his friend Jackson replied: "General Stuart, I am always glad to see you here. You might select better hours sometimes, but I am always glad to have you." Pausing, rubbing his leg, and managing to elicit the humor so well hidden inside, Jackson added, "But, General you must not get into my bed with your boots and spurs on and ride me around like a cavalry horse all night!"

It was at Bunker Hill that Stuart sent his present of a new uniform coat to Jackson. Stuart Sent Von Borcke to present the coat to Jackson personally and to not leave until he saw with his own eyes that Jackson had actually tried the finely tailored coat on. Jackson attempted to just admire the garment without trying it on but Von Borcke protested insisting he had orders not to leave until he saw with his own eyes that Jackson had tried it on and it fit him. So Jackson tried the jacket on and it fit perfectly. Even when Stuart was not present he had some strange influence over Jackson. A remarkable relationship between these two very different men.

Source: Cavalryman of the Lost Cause by Jeffry D. Wert
This story always make me laugh! I can almost hear Stuart's roar of laughter after Jackson's comment, and his gallant and humour-filled apology!
 

James N.

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To tell the truth I believe that no foreigner is able to understand Bavarian German, I scarcely understand it myself. Plattdeutsch has very much in common with English, but my favourite is Berlin-ish. I simply love to hear Berliners talk. So von Borcke being a Prussion would have very much sounded like that!

I've also read extensively about another of my military favorites, Erwin Rommel. He was from Wurttembourg in that region known as Swabia and supposedly chose staff members who were also Swabian and with whom he liked to talk in that particular regional dialect.
 

James N.

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So far I think no one has mentioned to role States Rights played in the rankings of Confederate senior officers. Longstreet was considered, I believe, a Georgian and that also played a role in his ranking over Jackson, yet another Virginian in an army seemingly dominated by Virginians.
 

NedBaldwin

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So far I think no one has mentioned to role States Rights played in the rankings of Confederate senior officers. Longstreet was considered, I believe, a Georgian and that also played a role in his ranking over Jackson, yet another Virginian in an army seemingly dominated by Virginians.

In the fall of 1862 7 were promoted to Lt General -- they were the first group given this rank in the CS Army.
Jackson was the only Virginian (Pemberton was listed as from Virginia but really wasnt a Virginian).
There was not a dominance of Virginians among the generals.
 
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So far I think no one has mentioned to role States Rights played in the rankings of Confederate senior officers. Longstreet was considered, I believe, a Georgian and that also played a role in his ranking over Jackson, yet another Virginian in an army seemingly dominated by Virginians.

In fact he was more considered an Alabamian. He was appointed to the USMA West Point by a congressman from Alabama (where his mother lived) and, when offering his services to the CSA in 61, he emphasized himself that he was from there by stating himself as the senior officer from that state in the U.S. Army.
 

War Horse

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In the fall of 1862 7 were promoted to Lt General -- they were the first group given this rank in the CS Army.
Jackson was the only Virginian (Pemberton was listed as from Virginia but really wasnt a Virginian).
There was not a dominance of Virginians among the generals.
That is very interesting.
 

War Horse

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In fact he was more considered an Alabamian. He was appointed to the USMA West Point by a congressman from Alabama (where his mother lived) and, when offering his services to the CSA in 61, he emphasized himself that he was from there by stating himself as the senior officer from that state in the U.S. Army.
That is very true. Rarely was he ever spoken of as a South Carolinian which is where he was born. Edgefeild, SC. About a year ago a friend of mine was killed in an automobile accident. I attended his funeral ironically in Edgefield, SC. To my knowledge no monument or plaque exists commemorating this.
 
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CadmusWilcox

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I have always wondered about this too.
I suppose it did not matter too much, as the men inbetween Longstreet amd Jackson were never going to serve in the same army as them. They were in the West.
As others have mentioned, It would seem to be a punishment, if that is the right term, for a poor showing on the Peninsular. But would not matter, as the higher ranked men would never come East.
 

hendrickms24

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Winfield Scott, was holding the Brevet rank of Lieutenant-General. So, being an honorary rank --he was able to be addressed as Lieutenant-General; and was the Commanding General of all the Armies of the United States, until his resignation. Only when Lincoln found Grant to be the correct man for the job, Lincoln had to resurrect General George Washington's rank of Lieutenant-General, due to Major-General Halleck's seniority and of course the personality conflicts between Grant and Halleck, going back to the battlefields in the Western theater. Lincoln had to make Grant highest in rank so that Halleck had to be obedient to Grant--plain and simple.
M. E. Wolf
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Scott did not resign his commission! He retired after Washington passed a law that allowed officers with 3o years of service to retire. I believe they did this to help get ride of the top leadership of the Old Army because back then there was only two ways to get out of the Army Resign or Die in service.
 

John S. Carter

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I completely agree with this assessment. Thank you.
Theoretical how would a Longstreet in command of Jackson had operated.?Were they a separate command,for it does seem at times that both reported to Lee separately?What was there military relationship like .competitive or corroborative?
 
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