Handguns 1851 Navy Colt (Engraved FRANK JAMES)

Yet, you could at least link the Archie Clement thread.

Cheers
GC
Use the internal search engine--last thing to the far right in the blue navigation bar. Key in the words "The Death of Little Archie Clements" It will come right up. You will find a detailed thread with supporting material and sources. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you'll do some reading as recommended, your opinion will probably change.
 
At Centralia, from an eye witness Dr. Sneed to US Major Johnson after the massacre and looting in town

"On the ground, Doctor Sneed asked him if he intended marching out to attack them. "I do," he emphatically responded. Dr. Sneed remonstrated and urged him not to risk a fight with the guerillas. "They largely outnumber you," he said," and they are much better armed and mounted, having four good revolvers each and splendid horses."

Johnson, intending to pursue Anderson and his command
"And they are armed only with revolvers?" he again queried. "Well, they may have the advantage of me in numbers but I will have the advantage of them in arms. My guns are of long range and I can fight them successfully at a distance." Soon after he added, " I will fight them anyhow."

Anderson, being chewed out by Todd, almost stepped down when the pursuing federals were spotted

battle at the farm

"Not a revolver in the crowd " he exultingly exclaimed to Arch. Clements.

Surely, if Clements was carrying 14 revolvers/guns, this would have stood out in these eye witness accounts. I can see how 4 can easily become 14, in myth and literature.at

The above from a history of Boone County, compiled from witnesses and citizens, published in 1882

Cheers
GC


You do realize Centralia and Lexington are different places, different years, and one isnt even during the war?

Though the witness was correct in the guerrillas with multiple revolvers certainly had the firepower advantage, the ensuing battle lasted bout 5 minutes as a stand up fight with Johnson losing a 100 or so in that period, they then chased down and killed those fleeing, Johnson lost 123 of the 147 he took on the field, including himself........The survivors were mainly from the back line that held the horses, that fled as the battle line was annihilated
 
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You do realize Centralia and Lexington are different places, different years, and one isnt even during the war?

Though the witness was correct in the guerrillas with multiple revolvers certainly had the firepower advantage, the ensuing battle lasted bout 5 minutes as a stand up fight with Johnson losing a 100 or so in that period, they then chased down and killed those fleeing, Johnson lost 123 of the 147 he took on the field, including himself........The survivors were mainly from the back line that held the horses, that fled as the battle line was annihilated
I'm going to respond to this post with a personal opinion. It is this: When we read or hear the term "Centralia Massacre", it does not apply to Johnson's foolhardy choice to fight the guerrillas. That was a legitimate (but VERY foolish) choice to go out and fight. The Centralia Massacre refers to those poor furloughed, unarmed boys who were taken off that train, stripped to their long johns (so the guerrillas could use their uniforms for disguise) and then executed with bullets to their heads.
 
I'm going to respond to this post with a personal opinion. It is this: When we read or hear the term "Centralia Massacre", it does not apply to Johnson's foolhardy choice to fight the guerrillas. That was a legitimate (but VERY foolish) choice to go out and fight. The Centralia Massacre refers to those poor furloughed, unarmed boys who were taken off that train, stripped to their long johns (so the guerrillas could use their uniforms for disguise) and then executed with bullets to their heads.

I agree, curious what the account of Centralia has to do with the account of Archies death (which is what the large number of revolvers example was ( I misquoted 14 from memory when it was 12 as its been a year or more since I've researched it, but dont see how it changes the point they were known to carry large numbers)

But as the Lexington and Centralia events are separate, there was two separate events and locations at Centralia, The massacre which occurred first in the town by the station, then the battle outside town as Johnson arrives and foolishly decides to pursue to give battle. The town raid and massacre was initiated by Anderson, the battle was foolishly initiated by Johnson however.

The actual battlefield is a favorite place of mine to visit, one can easily visualize the events. More so then the town massacre, as the town has changed alot.
 
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At Centralia, from an eye witness Dr. Sneed to US Major Johnson after the massacre and looting in town

"On the ground, Doctor Sneed asked him if he intended marching out to attack them. "I do," he emphatically responded. Dr. Sneed remonstrated and urged him not to risk a fight with the guerillas. "They largely outnumber you," he said," and they are much better armed and mounted, having four good revolvers each and splendid horses."

Johnson, intending to pursue Anderson and his command
"And they are armed only with revolvers?" he again queried. "Well, they may have the advantage of me in numbers but I will have the advantage of them in arms. My guns are of long range and I can fight them successfully at a distance." Soon after he added, " I will fight them anyhow."

Anderson, being chewed out by Todd, almost stepped down when the pursuing federals were spotted

battle at the farm

"Not a revolver in the crowd " he exultingly exclaimed to Arch. Clements.

Surely, if Clements was carrying 14 revolvers/guns, this would have stood out in these eye witness accounts. I can see how 4 can easily become 14, in myth and literature.

The above from a history of Boone County, compiled from witnesses and citizens, published in 1882

Cheers
GC
Just a couple things regarding your post.;
When Archie Clement was killed in 1866, he had 12 pistols on him and on his horse. It was never said he carried that many during the war, so I think that perhaps you misread the post. We do know he carried a knife, as he was know as Anderson's head scalper.

The Union commander who lead his raw troops against the guerrillas was Major Johnston, not Johnson. Since you quoted the Boone County history, I'm sure it's their error and not yours, and it's an error that's been made many times. And it was Johnston's hubris that got his men killed. They had Enfield muskets, and Johnston had them dismount when they came upon the guerrillas. The guerrillas were in awe when they saw them dismount; "The d----ded fools are going to fight us dismounted!"

And when Anderson was killed, he had six revolvers on him.

I do thank you for your post, and agree that if Archie had 12 revolvers on him, it would have been noteworthy in a number of after war accounts.
 
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My post was regarding a norm of revolvers and not the death of Archie.


Separately and still, linking the thread would have taken less time than lecturing people about content and woe is, I be a dummy.

So was it 12 or 14? :wink:

Hey, at least I bothered to share a reference to spout expertise from.

No more eaglehead pommels for Patrick :smile:

Cheers
GC
 
My post was regarding a norm of revolvers and not the death of Archie.


Separately and still, linking the thread would have taken less time than lecturing people about content and woe is, I be a dummy.

So was it 12 or 14? :wink:

Hey, at least I bothered to share a reference to spout expertise from.

No more eaglehead pommels for Patrick :smile:

Cheers
GC
If I offended you, I apologise.
 
My post was regarding a norm of revolvers and not the death of Archie.


Separately and still, linking the thread would have taken less time than lecturing people about content and woe is, I be a dummy.

So was it 12 or 14? :wink:

Hey, at least I bothered to share a reference to spout expertise from.

No more eaglehead pommels for Patrick :smile:

Cheers
GC
You stated you were interested in reading about this stuff. I provided sources and I showed you how to find the thread on Archie Clements here in our archives. I was showing you how to tap into a wealth of information on our site. Please don't complain when people try to help you.
 
I'll repeat a horror story I've mentioned here before: A year or two ago I was wandering through the wooded section of my favorite HUGE indoor/outdoor regional monthly flea market when I saw one of the regular dealers' setup. He had original 1850's Remington and Colt 1860 Army .44's, each for around $500, an obvious bargain. The trouble was, each had been deeply stamped, I think on the barrels, COLE YOUNGER and JESSEE JAMES! The appearance was not at all different from the marking on ths gun, other than the location. He said someone had already bought the other Younger brother's Remington and was keeping the 1860 Colt Army FRANK JAMES for himself! Sadly, these were absolutely original guns that had been defaced by some idiot "collector" at some unknown time in the past, likely in the 1950's when you could pick up guns like this for $100-$150 or so. And of course, @archieclement you know what I meant!
If a dealer has a gun that has the engraved names of Frank or Jesse James, Alonzo Cushing, Robert E. Lee, or Abraham Lincoln, you need to not walk away from that dealer, but run....
 
If a dealer has a gun that has the engraved names of Frank or Jesse James, Alonzo Cushing, Robert E. Lee, or Abraham Lincoln, you need to not walk away from that dealer, but run....
Ha! In Missouri, every revolver that crops up on the market was once owned by Jesse or Frank. Of course, they also slept in every barn and every cave in the state....
 
I remember reading (but connot give the link) that Anderson's men practiced by running their horses down a lane, reins in their mouth, shooting pumpkins off the tops of fence post.
Connelley describes similar examples of horsemanship and pistol accuracy in his book "Quantrill and the Border Wars." The reason I always encourage people to download the PDF version is so they can see and read his footnotes, where a lot of this information is given. For example, he describes watching a former guerrilla gallop his horse past a telegraph pole while firing numerous bullets into the same crack in the pole.
 
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Connelley describes similar examples of horselmanship and pistol accuracy in his book "Quantrill and the Border Wars." The reason I always encourage people to download the PDF version is so they can see and read his footnotes, where a lot of this information is given. For example, he describes watching a former guerrilla gallop his horse past a telegraph pole while firing numerous bullets into the same crack in the pole.
Patrick,
Your pointed out to me one of Connelley's informative long footnotes about the pistols the guerrillas used. It was probably to much information to include in his narrative so I agree with you; sometimes the most meat is in the footnotes.
 
I've owned three different cut barrel Smith and Wesson Model 3 in .44 caliber which were inscribed in wood stocks, or in metal, as property of "J James"
I guess he liked cartridge guns and his brother Frank liked percussion Colts.
 
It amazes me how many guns and swords are marketed as having been found hidden in a wall or the like in an old house which was being torn down. I'm always skeptical of these stories, especially if the item in itself is somewhat suspect. As for this item, I would be very surprised if the inscription is legit. Almost all genuine inscriptions are in script letters. I do not think I have ever seen a legitimate inscription in all capital letters in a modern font.
 
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