16th Michigan...where exactly were those guys?

"This last minute-t decision by Col. Vincent, hurrying the 16th Michigan, the smallest regiment in the brigade, from the lowest, tree-covered southern part of the hill to the higher position . Amos Judson to the 83rd Pennsylvania, its eventual historian, later claimed Vincent ordered the Michigan men into line with the Pennsylvanians on the left and the 44th New York on the right."

"Col. James Rice, reportedly asked that his regiment fight side-by-side with the 83rd Pennsylvania; Vincent agreed, Judson wrote, so the 16th Michigan was placed on the far right of their line."
 
"The 16th Michigan was not on Little Round Top's crest but 50 paces down from the southern summit. Their brigade line descended slightly as it curved around from the western face to the southern side of the rocky hill..."

I am no sure where Kim Crawford obtained all of the above.
 
I just logged on to post something about this, but did a search first. I was reading a maps book and noticed that the 16th was the far left at first and it threw me off. I have never heard about that before. Does anyone know why it was the left flank for a bit then moved? I am curious.

A family member of mine who did a lot of research on the fight on LRT is convinced that the 16th Michigan began on the left of the line long enough to deploy 2 companies as skirmishers (Company A and Brady's attached sharpshooter company) before being redeployed to the right. As far as to why, since Vincent died at Gettysburg, we don't know but my guess is that he could see the potential threat emanating from the Devil's Den area and so moved his veteran 16th from the left to the right to face this threat.

Ryan
 
A family member of mine who did a lot of research on the fight on LRT is convinced that the 16th Michigan began on the left of the line long enough to deploy 2 companies as skirmishers (Company A and Brady's attached sharpshooter company) before being redeployed to the right. As far as to why, since Vincent died at Gettysburg, we don't know but my guess is that he could see the potential threat emanating from the Devil's Den area and so moved his veteran 16th from the left to the right to face this threat.

Ryan
Thanks guys for the renewed discussion after almost 3 years since the thread started. I believe that after some more thought, Vincent decided that moving the 16th Michigan to the right of the brigade was more necessary for the immediate defense of the hill rather than on the left where there seemed to be less of threat. Of course, as events played out the Rebels eventually moved over to attack the 20th Maine in the area where the 16th would have been had it not moved.
 
I called John Heiser, the Ranger who retired this week to ask him. Here are my notes that I could type as he talked.

The 16 Michigan was originally on Left Flank. Vincent moved them to Right where the monument is. The Brigade was actually half way down the hill at the start of the battle. The 4th & 5th Texas pushed the brigade back up the slope.

The original site of the Monument was up on the slope. Veterans protested and got approval from Chamberlain and Commander of 44th Alabama to move it down lower where it sits.
 
When you look at the current location of boulders on Little Round Top, you must bear in mind that quite a few have been moved. The road to the top once came up to the crest and right past the 140th and 44th NY monuments. Back then, you did not even need to leave your car to see the view. In addition, you can see that things were leveed off a bit for the 44th NY and the ground northwest of the 140th NY has been filled in similar to a terrace. For what it is worth, it always struck me (without any historical basis) that the 44th NY monument was put where it is simply because it could not be built along the slope of the hill.
 
When you look at the current location of boulders on Little Round Top, you must bear in mind that quite a few have been moved. The road to the top once came up to the crest and right past the 140th and 44th NY monuments. Back then, you did not even need to leave your car to see the view. In addition, you can see that things were leveed off a bit for the 44th NY and the ground northwest of the 140th NY has been filled in similar to a terrace. For what it is worth, it always struck me (without any historical basis) that the 44th NY monument was put where it is simply because it could not be built along the slope of the hill.

Not to mention that the terrain itself has changed so dramatically. When the roads were originally built, the slopes were graded and some rocks were destroyed. Historically, the slope between LRT and BRT was quite a bit steeper than it is today.

Ryan
 
I called John Heiser, the Ranger who retired this week to ask him. Here are my notes that I could type as he talked.

The 16 Michigan was originally on Left Flank. Vincent moved them to Right where the monument is. The Brigade was actually half way down the hill at the start of the battle. The 4th & 5th Texas pushed the brigade back up the slope.

The original site of the Monument was up on the slope. Veterans protested and got approval from Chamberlain and Commander of 44th Alabama to move it down lower where it sits.

There seems to have been some confusion by the right of the 16th Michigan. Pressed by the Texans and Alabamans, Lt. Colonel Norval Welch wanted to mirror what Colonel Chamberlain was doing at the other end of the brigade and refuse his line (the Texans extended beyond his right flank) but when he gave the order, the colors (and several companies) withdrew towards the top of the hill. Colonel Vincent, seeing his right in trouble, climbed upon a rock and attempted to rally the Michiganders who were falling back. It was here that he fell, mortally wounded.

Ryan
 
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In 1902, Thomas R Lackie (E/16th MI) wrote a letter to his "brother," Mr. K C Bullard who was then living in Georgia. The letter was published in the local newspaper.
"The guides knew so little of the real facts concerning the actual and individual work done during the three days of battle, and position of troops, that I abandoned their assistance and took to the fields afoot."

A specific reference to the 16th Michigan monument later on in the letter seems to indicate that, Mr. Lackie believed the 16th Michigan Monument was located on or near the spot where the he "fought the Texans" ---- at least at the time he visited in 1902. Im not sure where it was then, or how many times it has been moved since?

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EDIT TO ADD: Ending and signature part of the article.
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For what it is worth, it always struck me (without any historical basis) that the 44th NY monument was put where it is simply because it could not be built along the slope of the hill.

I've always believed that, also. In addition, they probably wanted the monument to be as prominent as possible. As we now know, the men of the 44th NY were positioned a good number of feet away from their monument.
 
Do you know what they were doing during the fight? I don't recall any mention of these 2 companies being at that location in the saddle.

Kim Crawford in the 16th Michigan Infantry in the Civil War looks at the possibilities. Col. William Oates reported that two federal regiments were flaking him on his right. These "two federal regiments" were assumed to be skirmishers from the 20th Maine and a few US Sharpshooters. Crawford suggests that the two companies of the 16th Michigan which included the Brady Sharpshooters and Company A were part of the "two federal regiments".

Crawford also point out that a history of the 3rd Brigade stated that other brigade skirmishers companies "followed and supported" the 20th Maine as it charged and pursued the Rebels.

Crawford uses the diaries of Pvt. Apted and Sgt Berry (part of the skirmisher companies) to show this. "The diaries of Apted and Berry show the 16th Michigan skirmishers were part of the fight-cut off from their battle line. "maneuvering" on the left, "expending munition," and helping to capture scores of Confederates. The 16th Michigan's Brady Sharpshooters and Company A could only have contributed here to the repulse of the Rebel attack on the south side of Little Round Top."

"Sgt. Berry noted that "we" (the skirmishers) captured about 200 rebels." Pvt. Apted also stated they took a large number of prisoners.
 
When Col Chamberlain sent out "Capt.Morrill's Company B forward as skirmishers, to extend my left flak across this hollow"... ... Yet Morrill was also acting, at least initially, in concert with Welch's Company A and Brady Sharpshooters; he ordered his men "to connect on the right with the 16th Mich Regt. skirmishers."
 
View attachment 353941

In 1902, Thomas R Lackie (E/16th MI) wrote a letter to his brother, Mr. K C Bullard who was then living in Georgia. The letter was published in the local newspaper.
"The guides knew so little of the real facts concerning the actual and individual work done during the three days of battle, and position of troops, that I abandoned their assistance and took to the fields afoot."

A specific reference to the 16th Michigan monument later on in the letter seems to indicate that, Mr. Lackie believed the 16th Michigan Monument was located on or near the spot where the he "fought the Texans" ---- at least at the time he visited in 1902. Im not sure where it was then, or how many times it has been moved since?

View attachment 353942
EDIT TO ADD: Ending and signature part of the article.
View attachment 353958
This is a wonderful letter. Anyone familiar with the fields at Gettysburg can follow along with Lackie step for step. Please do give us the rest of the letter. Also, is there any possibility of seeing more of the exchange between the brothers?
 
Kim Crawford in the 16th Michigan Infantry in the Civil War looks at the possibilities. Col. William Oates reported that two federal regiments were flaking him on his right. These "two federal regiments" were assumed to be skirmishers from the 20th Maine and a few US Sharpshooters. Crawford suggests that the two companies of the 16th Michigan which included the Brady Sharpshooters and Company A were part of the "two federal regiments".

Crawford also point out that a history of the 3rd Brigade stated that other brigade skirmishers companies "followed and supported" the 20th Maine as it charged and pursued the Rebels.

Crawford uses the diaries of Pvt. Apted and Sgt Berry (part of the skirmisher companies) to show this. "The diaries of Apted and Berry show the 16th Michigan skirmishers were part of the fight-cut off from their battle line. "maneuvering" on the left, "expending munition," and helping to capture scores of Confederates. The 16th Michigan's Brady Sharpshooters and Company A could only have contributed here to the repulse of the Rebel attack on the south side of Little Round Top."

"Sgt. Berry noted that "we" (the skirmishers) captured about 200 rebels." Pvt. Apted also stated they took a large number of prisoners.

Extremely interesting! Thanks. It would make sense that some of skirmishers of the 16th were cut off during their regiment's move to the right of the brigade. However, I have trouble believing that there would have been 2 full companies left behind. That would have been more men than Company B of the 20th Maine! Perhaps @Tom Elmore has some info on this.
 
Extremely interesting! Thanks. It would make sense that some of skirmishers of the 16th were cut off during their regiment's move to the right of the brigade. However, I have trouble believing that there would have been 2 full companies left behind. That would have been more men than Company B of the 20th Maine! Perhaps @Tom Elmore has some info on this.

If it is true, the 16th Michigan's new battle line was missing a good part of the regiment.
 
This is a wonderful letter. Anyone familiar with the fields at Gettysburg can follow along with Lackie step for step. Please do give us the rest of the letter.
Happy to oblige. Here is the entire letter. There are a couple of other exchanges, but not related to Gettysburg. Turns out, Lackie and Bullard are not actually blood brothers - they just became very good friends after the war. I just made that assumption based on the nature of this particular letter.
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<continued below>
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"Dedication of 83d Pa. Monument. The monument erected at Gettysburg,on Little Round Top, of the 83d Pa. will be dedicated with appropriate services Sept. 11 and 12, which are designated as 'Pennsylvania Days' ... The monument erected for the 83d Pa. is on Little Round Top, about 50 feet in the rear of the line of battle of the regiment as formed hastily on the afternoon of July 2. It consists of a pedestal of Quincy granite, 12 feet four inches high above its base. The pedestal is surmounted by a heroic figure in standard bronze of Gen. Strong Vincent, then Colonel of the 83d, but acting Brigadier-General in command of the brigade ... represents Gen. Vincent in the act of drawing his trusty sword, after having mounted the big rock whereon he stands. ... The work complete cost $3,100; $1,500 of which was appropriated by the State, and the balance being raised by the Regimental Association and its friends. The statue is said to be a very correct representation of Gen. Vincent, and approved by his wife, who now resides in Allegheny, Pa. ... " [National Tribune, August 29, 1889, p. 6]
 
If it is true, the 16th Michigan's new battle line was missing a good part of the regiment.

For what it is worth, I always believed it was true. Penny and Laine's book Struggle for the Round Tops shows the position of the 2 co. of 16th Mich on their map and state ' When Capt. Morrill led his men (Co B 20th) into the woods the 2 companies were already there behind the rock wall. Morrill went into line on the left of the Mich companies. ' Then as the battle progressed members of the 2nd USss joined them behind the wall.

Penny and Laine cite OR v27 pt1 Morrill to Chamberlin July 8, 63

So years ago on a LBG tour he asked If I wanted to stop at LRT and see anything and as we passed the saddle I said 'no, but I haven't walked back there in years and I'm told there is a path now back where Co B was all by themselves'. The guide kind of snorted and said 'Yeah, there's a path since the movie... but they were not all by themselves...they had plenty of company.' So he elaborated on the 16th guys as well as the 2ndUS.

...he was not a fan of the movie at that time. But only because it caused traffic. And you couldn't find a parking space.
 
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