Restricted ‘Reprehensible’: Lawmaker Calls For Statue Of Abraham Lincoln To Be Taken Down

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Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
I'm not comparing Lincoln to Wilberforce other then both greatly aiding the ending of slavery in their respective countries.........I just find it odd you separated blacks specifically from being grateful or indebted to their actions, as I would think the whole of both countries benefited. Agree slaveowners should have been compensated. I don't think Lincoln is perfect by any means, just find not giving him credit for EP and pushing for the 13th odd.
 
Its not the same slavery had virtually died out in the West by the time Lincoln got into power which was due to British sea power and moral guilt of the British people and against the will of most of the major powers.

Britain also paid out nearly 300 billion dollars in compensation which it only stop paying a few years back , How much did the US pay in compensation?.

It could be argued or debated that Lincoln enacted the emancipation proclamation in order to save the treasury a boat load of money after all the slave states who were part of the confederacy wouldn't have to be compensated at all , In fact if the US paid compensation today it would result in over 20 Trillion dollars in reparations.

In fact after the war the only money a slave could receive was $100 for leaving the US.

Please do not compare Wilberforce with Lincoln one stopped the Atlantic Slave trade and made the super power of the age pay-out billions in compensation and the other appeased slave holders and only freed the slaves out of necessity.
First off, Lincoln was anti-slavery his entire life and believed that all Blacks should be free, and he never wavered from that belief. Lincoln's words and beliefs are readily available to anyone that seeks them.

Secondly, as a result of the American colonies' successful rebellion against the tyranny of the Crown, we ended up forming a constitutionally limited republic with a Constitution that among things that differ from English law, prohibits a "bill of attainder." The amendment in our Bill of Rights that prohibits this type of punishment is Article I, Section 9, paragraph 3 that states: "No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law will be passed."

Under the laws of England, "[a] bill of attainder was a legislative act that singled out one or more persons and imposed punishment on them, without benefit of trial. Such actions were regarded as odious by the framers of the Constitution because it was the traditional role of a court, judging an individual case, to impose punishment."
William H. Rehnquist, 16th Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court.

Article I, Section 9, paragraph 3 of our Constitution has been one of the biggest roadblocks preventing the imposition of penalties on the former slave owners once slavery was outlawed, and up to current times, the penalizing of a particular group of citizens who had nothing to do with slavery. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.
 

JerryD

Private
Joined
Aug 23, 2021
Its not strange at all , Are you saying every Black person should be in debited to Lincoln? Their was thousands of others who worked hard to abolish slavery the British abolished it 30 years before Lincoln and stopped the Slave trade completely , William Wilberforce certainly did more than any man in the world to stop slavery not some president who wanted to appease slave holders in 1861.

The constitution isn't worth the paper its written on it was to ensure the top 10% of land owning gentleman didn't lose out imho the words equality and liberty only applied to those gentleman.

It says a lot when Native Americans and Black people preferred a colonial power like Great Britain to its freedom loving all men are equal colonials in both 1776 and 1812 but I'm not sure that is taught in American schools as the British are the bad guys nothing is said of the anti slavery movement before 1776 or the fact that the trans Atlantic slave trade had been abolished 4 years before the war of 1812.

American's celebrating the fact they abolished slavery with a statue of Lincoln a man who did not want to abolish slavery in 1861 is quite pathetic really , Celebrate him for keeping the Union together because that's what he should be known for imho.
Well, you are quite wrong about what is taught in US Schools. Native Americans and blacks fought on both sides of the American Revolution when we threw off the despotic rule of Great Britain. An yes, they also teach about the slave trade being abolished and the arguments about slavery during the drafting of the Constitution. And its rather rich to hear an Englishman make the statement that the US Constitution is trash, when it has been used as a model for most developing democracies around the world. Not to mention that it is pure sophistry to argue that you cant celebrate the leadership role Lincoln took in freeing the slaves unless we equally celebrate every other person who worked to abolish slavery. While you are correct that his primary purpose was to preserve the Union, it is also equally correct that as President he worked to make sure that the Emancipation Proclamation was effectively preserved in the Constitution by pushing for passage of the 13th Amendment.
 
Well, you are quite wrong about what is taught in US Schools. Native Americans and blacks fought on both sides of the American Revolution when we threw off the despotic rule of Great Britain. An yes, they also teach about the slave trade being abolished and the arguments about slavery during the drafting of the Constitution. And its rather rich to hear an Englishman make the statement that the US Constitution is trash, when it has been used as a model for most developing democracies around the world. Not to mention that it is pure sophistry to argue that you cant celebrate the leadership role Lincoln took in freeing the slaves unless we equally celebrate every other person who worked to abolish slavery. While you are correct that his primary purpose was to preserve the Union, it is also equally correct that as President he worked to make sure that the Emancipation Proclamation was effectively preserved in the Constitution by pushing for passage of the 13th Amendment.

Excellent reply. I'd also like to add that Lincoln had always believed that Blacks should be free. Anyone who takes the time to read the volumes of Lincoln's speeches and his writings cannot help to realize that one consistency throughout his life was his deep hatred for slavery. Lincoln, like many of us, has said things earlier in his life that he, like us, have gone on to regret as we've matured. It's obvious that Lincoln metamorphosed his attitude on racial equality as his life progressed to a point that Frederick Douglass said that was never more quickly or more completely put at ease in the presence of such a great man. Douglass praised Lincoln for always treating him as a complete equal without condescension or an awareness the difference in race.
 

Scott1967

First Sergeant
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Location
England
First off, Lincoln was anti-slavery his entire life and believed that all Blacks should be free, and he never wavered from that belief. Lincoln's words and beliefs are readily available to anyone that seeks them.
He was I don't dispute that but lets get something straight here he was not an abolitionist who set the wheels in motion and made the issue of slavery at the forefront of US politics in the years prior to the war.
Native Americans and blacks fought on both sides of the American Revolution when we threw off the despotic rule of Great Britain
Total claptrap with all due respect the Indians in general were universally in favour of the British , The Cherokee , Creek , And the vast majority of the Iroquois all favoured the British due to the British attitude to land expansion at the time.

Over 20,000 Black people served the British army compared to 4,000 in the Patriot Army the Big difference here is that the British black soldiers actually fought in battles this is recorded and written down unlike their patriot counterparts.

Their would have been more Black regiments but not for the Loyalist's fears of slave insurrections.

Some very prominent Patriots had their slaves run to British lines as you well know.

Despotic Rule? Are you serious the 13 colonies were one of the best places to live in the world at the time the excuse of tax without representation is the one redeeming factor as at the time the British public had no representation at all.

Regardless of what you may think of me I actually agreed the Patriots had a good case to form their own country and were justified.
It's obvious that Lincoln metamorphosed his attitude on racial equality as his life progressed to a point that Frederick Douglass said that was never more quickly or more completely put at ease in the presence of such a great man. Douglass praised Lincoln for always treating him as a complete equal without condescension or an awareness the difference in race.
Again this is claptrap and again its with all due respect , Lincoln was 100% patriotic to his country he would have done anything to save his country first including keeping Slavery which of course he thought would die a natural death this is not the view of someone who despises slavery in the sense of an abolitionist meaning to say it was not a priority to Lincoln , He knew that the amount of free states entering the Union it would be a matter of time why upset the apple cart.

Douglass comments suggest that Lincoln was a polite man and that's all in his early life Lincoln believed that the Blacks should be set free and then be shoved off to Africa which was US policy after the war.

Lincoln was a very clever man the emancipation proclamation did three things it first ensured all Slaves were free but more importantly it hurt the Confederacy and made sure the US would not pay any compensation to slave holders of the Confederacy while offing compensation to the border states which btw were all rejected by those said states.

I mean no disrespect to the US at all I see it as my opinion , Personally I think Lincoln was a genius but please lets not portray him as the great liberator of the slaves I think that would be false as their were many many people who fought to free the slaves more of them more dedicated than Mr Lincoln.

A statue of Lincoln should be celebrated for keeping the US together in a time of crisis not for being the sole contributor of freeing the slaves that he was not.
 
Again this is claptrap and again its with all due respect , Lincoln was 100% patriotic to his country he would have done anything to save his country first including keeping Slavery which of course he thought would die a natural death this is not the view of someone who despises slavery in the sense of an abolitionist meaning to say it was not a priority to Lincoln , He knew that the amount of free states entering the Union it would be a matter of time why upset the apple cart.

Douglass comments suggest that Lincoln was a polite man and that's all in his early life Lincoln believed that the Blacks should be set free and then be shoved off to Africa which was US policy after the war.

Lincoln was a very clever man the emancipation proclamation did three things it first ensured all Slaves were free but more importantly it hurt the Confederacy and made sure the US would not pay any compensation to slave holders of the Confederacy while offing compensation to the border states which btw were all rejected by those said states.

I mean no disrespect to the US at all I see it as my opinion , Personally I think Lincoln was a genius but please lets not portray him as the great liberator of the slaves I think that would be false as their were many many people who fought to free the slaves more of them more dedicated than Mr Lincoln.

A statue of Lincoln should be celebrated for keeping the US together in a time of crisis not for being the sole contributor of freeing the slaves that he was not.
Lincoln never claimed to be an abolitionist and yes, he was was an advocate of voluntary colonization as were some of the prominent Black leaders and White abolitionists of the day. The Lincoln statue is not for him being the "sole contributor" to freeing the slaves, but his Emancipation Proclamation which did actually free thousands of slaves in the Confederacy, started the ball rolling and his push to get fence-sitting congressman to vote for the 13th Amendment was key to its passage. Had it not been for Lincoln, there probably would not have been an Emancipation amendment for many years in the future.
 

JerryD

Private
Joined
Aug 23, 2021
He was I don't dispute that but lets get something straight here he was not an abolitionist who set the wheels in motion and made the issue of slavery at the forefront of US politics in the years prior to the war.

Total claptrap with all due respect the Indians in general were universally in favour of the British , The Cherokee , Creek , And the vast majority of the Iroquois all favoured the British due to the British attitude to land expansion at the time.

Over 20,000 Black people served the British army compared to 4,000 in the Patriot Army the Big difference here is that the British black soldiers actually fought in battles this is recorded and written down unlike their patriot counterparts.

Their would have been more Black regiments but not for the Loyalist's fears of slave insurrections.

Some very prominent Patriots had their slaves run to British lines as you well know.

Despotic Rule? Are you serious the 13 colonies were one of the best places to live in the world at the time the excuse of tax without representation is the one redeeming factor as at the time the British public had no representation at all.

Regardless of what you may think of me I actually agreed the Patriots had a good case to form their own country and were justified.

Again this is claptrap and again its with all due respect , Lincoln was 100% patriotic to his country he would have done anything to save his country first including keeping Slavery which of course he thought would die a natural death this is not the view of someone who despises slavery in the sense of an abolitionist meaning to say it was not a priority to Lincoln , He knew that the amount of free states entering the Union it would be a matter of time why upset the apple cart.

Douglass comments suggest that Lincoln was a polite man and that's all in his early life Lincoln believed that the Blacks should be set free and then be shoved off to Africa which was US policy after the war.

Lincoln was a very clever man the emancipation proclamation did three things it first ensured all Slaves were free but more importantly it hurt the Confederacy and made sure the US would not pay any compensation to slave holders of the Confederacy while offing compensation to the border states which btw were all rejected by those said states.

I mean no disrespect to the US at all I see it as my opinion , Personally I think Lincoln was a genius but please lets not portray him as the great liberator of the slaves I think that would be false as their were many many people who fought to free the slaves more of them more dedicated than Mr Lincoln.

A statue of Lincoln should be celebrated for keeping the US together in a time of crisis not for being the sole contributor of freeing the slaves that he was not.
I respectfully disagree. Your facts are simply wrong, and you continue to make comments that are simply red herrings, such as slaves leaving some owners as if this had some bearing on this discussion. Indian supporters of the English were generally bought, much as your Hessian mercenaries were, so I fail to see how that is germane to this discussion. You are certainly entitled to have wrong opinions, but to ludicrously suggest that Lincoln does not deserve credit for his leadership role as President of the United States in abolishing slavery throughout the country, based soley on your opinion of his dedication, renders the majority of your other opinions rather suspect. And yes, Great Britain in the 18th century was the original evil empire of the modern world. Its cruelty, arrogance and stupidity in dealing with its colonies, not only in America, is so well documented as to be beyond question. I speak as an Irish American.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
but please lets not portray him as the great liberator of the slaves I think that would be false as their were many many people who fought to free the slaves more of them more dedicated than Mr Lincoln.
These type remarks always seem meant to distract to me, not sure who you wish to falsely credit with fighting more.

But no one does more then those who actually do and accomplish actual things......which is Lincoln with the EP, and the 38th Congress and Lincoln with the 13th amendment.

Others may been cheerleaders, other may have tried and failed, but the actual doers and accomplisher's are indeed Lincoln and the 38th Congress as far as ending slavery in the US.

Personally would think Lincoln memorials also somewhat symbolize the 38th Congress as it's easier then protraying 158 congressmen and representives.
 

Scott1967

First Sergeant
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Location
England
Lincoln never claimed to be an abolitionist and yes, he was was an advocate of voluntary colonization as were some of the prominent Black leaders and White abolitionists of the day. The Lincoln statue is not for him being the "sole contributor" to freeing the slaves, but his Emancipation Proclamation which did actually free thousands of slaves in the Confederacy, started the ball rolling and his push to get fence-sitting congressman to vote for the 13th Amendment was key to its passage. Had it not been for Lincoln, there probably would not have been an Emancipation amendment for many years in the future.
Your forgetting Lincoln in 1861 wanted a status quo he would let the South keep slavery if they did not leave the Union the fact they he used the proclamation in Sept 1862 as tool to weaken the Confederacy and I have no doubt in my opinion to save millions of dollars in reparations because Lincoln was not stupid he had no intention of bankrupting the country over slavery or paying a dime to the slave holding class its the whole reason why the US has never paid a cent in reparations.

That been said if you believe Lincoln forced through the 13th amendment just to free the slaves that's fine knock yourself out its a free world so to speak.
I respectfully disagree. Your facts are simply wrong, and you continue to make comments that are simply red herrings, such as slaves leaving some owners as if this had some bearing on this discussion. Indian supporters of the English were generally bought, much as your Hessian mercenaries were, so I fail to see how that is germane to this discussion. You are certainly entitled to have wrong opinions, but to ludicrously suggest that Lincoln does not deserve credit for his leadership role as President of the United States in abolishing slavery throughout the country, based soley on your opinion of his dedication, renders the majority of your other opinions rather suspect. And yes, Great Britain in the 18th century was the original evil empire of the modern world. Its cruelty, arrogance and stupidity in dealing with its colonies, not only in America, is so well documented as to be beyond question. I speak as an Irish American.
All empires have both bad and good points the good being they bring Stability the bad is any countries under said Empires will have their countries stripped of Resources , Manpower and Democratic Values.

My wife was born and lived in Wales , I was Born in Scotland but lived in England the vast majority of my life , My Wife's mother is from Ireland and my Mother was from England and my father from Scotland.

I call myself English because that's where I was brought up were you brought up in Ireland? were you born in Ireland? What gives you the right to call yourself Irish? Why not just American.

And this is the problem with statues we put them up to celebrate events and people of the past but in doing so court controversy and age old bias for no other reason than they exist as generations pass the statues become less and less relevant and while History should not be forgotten it does not bode well to dwell in the past.

In my opinion of course.
 

Cycom

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Joined
Feb 19, 2021
Location
Los Angeles, California
@Scott1967

You don’t want to place Lincoln on the same echelon as other more “important” anti-slavery advocates. That’s cool. Mentioning Wilberforce as being better for the cause is frankly, silly, though. Americans don’t generally care much for British historical figures, especially relatively unknown ones like this dude. We have our heroes, just like any other country. Lincoln means something to us because he was an American. But this is beside the point. You are clear about being against monuments placed to remember individuals.

Would you say statues to all individuals should be removed, regardless of the time period and historical significance?
 

Scott1967

First Sergeant
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Location
England
@Scott1967

You don’t want to place Lincoln on the same echelon as other more “important” anti-slavery advocates. That’s cool. Mentioning Wilberforce as being better for the cause is frankly, silly, though. Americans don’t generally care much for British historical figures, especially relatively unknown ones like this dude. We have our heroes, just like any other country. Lincoln means something to us because he was an American. But this is beside the point. You are clear about being against monuments placed to remember individuals.

Would you say statues to all individuals should be removed, regardless of the time period and historical significance?
I have great admiration for Lincoln I think he was a genius had he lived who knows what he could have achieved I also have deep respect and understanding of the patriot cause I can fully understand why they rebelled to a certain extent the representation is a strong motive however like I stated in my opinion I thought the Constitution was relevant to around the top 10% of the people at the time or shall we say those of means.

Its a shame Wilberforce is little known in the US and the UK he is not even taught in UK schools but I would advise anyone interested in the abolition of Slavery to read up on him this man stopped the Atlantic Slave trade and made parliament pay-out nearly 300 billion in todays money to end slavery in the Empire.

Indeed I would pull down the lot or at least put them in museums that's includes those of Churchill , Cromwell , Boudica in my own country , We live in different times and while is good to read and visit museums I feel these statues have no place in public areas however I fully endorse memorials to soldiers from any side in any war and condemn the cowardly defacing of these statues or memorials those people are idiots and I have no time for them.

I hope this gives you a better idea of what I think.
 
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