Muzzleldrs ‘54 Lorenz, is it any good?

JJ9898

Cadet
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
Hi I’m new here. I like the history behind the American civil war, and I did have an ancestor who fought and was shot in the hand at stones river. He fought in a regiment from Illinois. I’ve been looking into buying my first B.P. Gun, and I’ve been looking into a Pietta Spiller and Burr reproduction, but first I would like to buy a rifle. The Pedersolli 1854 Lorenz has caught my eye. I have heard many good things about the rifle, but also heard that accuracy can be trouble. Can anyone speak if they have any information or own one? Thanks and Merry Christmas.
 

Rusk County Avengers

1st Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Location
Coffeeville, TX
Hello and welcome to CWT as well as a Merry Christmas from Texas!

I'm not an owner of the Pedersoli Lorenz, and I think I may have made myself a bit notorious on my feelings for the gun. A good description and discussion of it can be found here:


As for its accuracy, I think ammunition may be involved. The reproduction, like the original, uses the "Lorenz compression bullet" as many call it and I suspect if one uses a round ball instead of the proper ammunition, one will be disappointed on accuracy. Also of course there is the fact a lot of Italian made rifle-muskets do have a reputation for inaccuracy out of the box, some would say Pedersoli is exempt from this, I would contend that personally.

If your heart is set on a Pedersoli Lorenz I say go for it, but be sure you get a bullet mold as well, and some books on bullet casting if your uninitiated. If your heart is set on just a Lorenz, well shootable originals can be had for a lot cheaper and they were there so to speak.

If your just in the market for just any good reproduction musket, or rifle-musket I would recommend either the smoothbore or rifled version of Chiappa's rendition of the US M1842 musket in .69 caliber. First off, its .69 caliber! Who wouldn't want to send a bullet that size down range, and in smoothbore you can use buck'n'ball loads. Also while its still off in some areas, its always been one of the closest in shape, weight, and lines to the CW era original, which is always a plus.

Also you have the various reproduction P1853 Enfield's (I recommend the Pedersoli one), and US M1861 Springfields, (I also recommend Pedersoli here, Chiappa's have some issues).

Either way good luck on your search and welcome to the world of shooting black powder, for its addictive.
 

FedericoFCavada

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Location
San Antonio, Texas
I really, really like the Pedersoli replica of the Lorenz rifle musket! I do not own one. I've handled one at Gettysburg, and a member of my club shoots one. I've been able to look at an original too.

Some people are a bit miffed that Pedersoli is not replicating the odd quadrangular section socket bayonet for the piece.
As for shooting it with either the Wilkinson-type compression skirt ball, or with a Minié/Burton ball, check out the Hungarian champion muzzle loader Bálazs Németh on his capandball.eu channel. Admittedly, this is promotional for Pedersoli in many ways, but very interesting and informative.

During the actual War of the Rebellion, neither Ordnance department issued a correctly sized .54 Minié for it, and so accuracy complaints were frequent with the originals. With the replica, as advised up post, get the right bullet mould and give yourself some time to tinker with it at the range and you should be happy.

I would caution you that the Lorenz, like U.S. Ordnance of the time, has the metal finished "in the white" or "arsenal bright" and boy is it a job to keep that from rusting on ya...

I shoot a .69 rifled and sightes Model 1842 Springfield. I use powder-puff loads of 3f and a "wadcutter" Minié that is fully 200+ grains lighter than the service cartridge of 80 grains of musket powder behind a 730-gr. Minié. I'd not want to shoot the service load, lest I get a detached retina or something. You may find that a full house .69 is "too much gun." The U.S. Army sure did!

I also shoot a .58 cal. Model 1841 "Mississippi" replica from Pedersoli. Or I should say, "used to" since I oafishly toppled the barrel out of my water bucket while I was cleaning it, and it crashed into my kitchen stove and knocked my front sight off... As a short statured person, I love the two-bander in comparison with the three bander. Much easier to handle, load, shoot, etc. Keeping the brass bright can be a bit of a chore at times

If saving a bit of money is your style, then I'd strongly recommend you get a Pattern 1853 Enfield replica. These can be had very reasonably, new or second hand. People complain that the stock fit is awkward and that it is difficult to get a cheek weld. This is because the Limeys actually held their rifle muskets more "squared" to the target than we North American -- cousin "Jonathans" do. If one can deal with that, then get the Enfield--three band or two band your preference--and measure the bore carefully. It should be a .577 or .58. Get a Minié mould that is just a few thousandths smaller. In my case, with my M1841, I was obliged by Pat Kaboskey in Wisconsin, who sells Minié bullets of various types, and I simply "hand fit" a range of known, sized Miniés into the bore, and then bought the correct size in quantity from him through Lodgewood Mfr. Later still, I got a bullet mould of the correct size.

Some people, myself included, like the idea of discovering what the Civil War ancestor was issued, and try to opt for that. In my case, these would be some plain jane Vanilla rifle muskets--Enfields and 1861 Springfields, plus whatever odd-ball Prussian, or Saxon or whatever rifled muskets the 37th IA "graybeards" toted... In the end, I just went with a rifle I liked the lines and handling of--The M1841 Mississippi--and then later the opportunity to get an original M1842 fell into my purview.

Good luck and good shooting to ya!

If group activities don't bother you, then you might see if there is a group of skirmishers/ N-SSA near you. Actual skirmishing with the musket is both fun and challenging. You can still shoot for long range or accuracy on your own, or even hunt if you'd like.

Allow me to further add that I would not recommend the über-authentic, historically correct late war lubricant of 1 part tallow to 8 parts beeswax. Way too thick! I'd stick with the pre-war mix of 1 in 3, or even 50/50 half n' half.
 

Rusk County Avengers

1st Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Location
Coffeeville, TX
I really, really like the Pedersoli replica of the Lorenz rifle musket! I do not own one. I've handled one at Gettysburg, and a member of my club shoots one. I've been able to look at an original too.

Some people are a bit miffed that Pedersoli is not replicating the odd quadrangular section socket bayonet for the piece.
As for shooting it with either the Wilkinson-type compression skirt ball, or with a Minié/Burton ball, check out the Hungarian champion muzzle loader Bálazs Németh on his capandball.eu channel. Admittedly, this is promotional for Pedersoli in many ways, but very interesting and informative.

During the actual War of the Rebellion, neither Ordnance department issued a correctly sized .54 Minié for it, and so accuracy complaints were frequent with the originals. With the replica, as advised up post, get the right bullet mould and give yourself some time to tinker with it at the range and you should be happy.

I would caution you that the Lorenz, like U.S. Ordnance of the time, has the metal finished "in the white" or "arsenal bright" and boy is it a job to keep that from rusting on ya...

I shoot a .69 rifled and sightes Model 1842 Springfield. I use powder-puff loads of 3f and a "wadcutter" Minié that is fully 200+ grains lighter than the service cartridge of 80 grains of musket powder behind a 730-gr. Minié. I'd not want to shoot the service load, lest I get a detached retina or something. You may find that a full house .69 is "too much gun." The U.S. Army sure did!

I also shoot a .58 cal. Model 1841 "Mississippi" replica from Pedersoli. Or I should say, "used to" since I oafishly toppled the barrel out of my water bucket while I was cleaning it, and it crashed into my kitchen stove and knocked my front sight off... As a short statured person, I love the two-bander in comparison with the three bander. Much easier to handle, load, shoot, etc. Keeping the brass bright can be a bit of a chore at times

If saving a bit of money is your style, then I'd strongly recommend you get a Pattern 1853 Enfield replica. These can be had very reasonably, new or second hand. People complain that the stock fit is awkward and that it is difficult to get a cheek weld. This is because the Limeys actually held their rifle muskets more "squared" to the target than we North American -- cousin "Jonathans" do. If one can deal with that, then get the Enfield--three band or two band your preference--and measure the bore carefully. It should be a .577 or .58. Get a Minié mould that is just a few thousandths smaller. In my case, with my M1841, I was obliged by Pat Kaboskey in Wisconsin, who sells Minié bullets of various types, and I simply "hand fit" a range of known, sized Miniés into the bore, and then bought the correct size in quantity from him through Lodgewood Mfr. Later still, I got a bullet mould of the correct size.

Some people, myself included, like the idea of discovering what the Civil War ancestor was issued, and try to opt for that. In my case, these would be some plain jane Vanilla rifle muskets--Enfields and 1861 Springfields, plus whatever odd-ball Prussian, or Saxon or whatever rifled muskets the 37th IA "graybeards" toted... In the end, I just went with a rifle I liked the lines and handling of--The M1841 Mississippi--and then later the opportunity to get an original M1842 fell into my purview.

Good luck and good shooting to ya!

If group activities don't bother you, then you might see if there is a group of skirmishers/ N-SSA near you. Actual skirmishing with the musket is both fun and challenging. You can still shoot for long range or accuracy on your own, or even hunt if you'd like.

Allow me to further add that I would not recommend the über-authentic, historically correct late war lubricant of 1 part tallow to 8 parts beeswax. Way too thick! I'd stick with the pre-war mix of 1 in 3, or even 50/50 half n' half.

One can't go wrong with a Mississippi. My very first muzzle stuffer was a brand new Euroarms Mississippi that I still have and treasure. I used to shoot it all the time and for quite a while it was my main reenacting gun before I retired it in favor of an Enfield, (I just didn't want to see it's stock or finish get scuffed up anymore and fixing that after every event got tiresome). I really need to take that gun out to the range, its been a few years and the metal flapper target I used to use was not safe within 300 yards. I miss that target, shooting it with a .45-90 Rolling-Block tore it to shreds at hitting it from 250 yards.

One lesson I learned in a heartbeat with the Euroarms Mississippi when I was a kid, don't use the rammer with round balls! That brass tip on the rammer deformed like nothing else, but it gave me a crash course in fixing such things, though in hindsight I may just replace the dang tip one day, even though its held up well ever since I repaired it.
 

FedericoFCavada

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Location
San Antonio, Texas
One can't go wrong with a Mississippi. My very first muzzle stuffer was a brand new Euroarms Mississippi that I still have and treasure. I used to shoot it all the time and for quite a while it was my main reenacting gun before I retired it in favor of an Enfield, (I just didn't want to see it's stock or finish get scuffed up anymore and fixing that after every event got tiresome). I really need to take that gun out to the range, its been a few years and the metal flapper target I used to use was not safe within 300 yards. I miss that target, shooting it with a .45-90 Rolling-Block tore it to shreds at hitting it from 250 yards.

One lesson I learned in a heartbeat with the Euroarms Mississippi when I was a kid, don't use the rammer with round balls! That brass tip on the rammer deformed like nothing else, but it gave me a crash course in fixing such things, though in hindsight I may just replace the dang tip one day, even though its held up well ever since I repaired it.

For Minies, I'm still using the flat brass fronted rammer. I actually got a correct length Minie rammer for the Mississippi, but it won't fit in the slot for it in the stock. I even took out the little spring "spoon" and it still wouldn't fit. The ramrod on the Lorenz is awesome! It has a little piece of brass on it to prevent it from damaging the bore if you do your part. I've broken a ramrod from Dixie GW on my very first try! Darn thing snapped off right where it started to flare.

I should think .45-90 would tear pretty much anything to shreds... Including the firer's shoulder! Ouch! :nah disagree::cannon:
 

JJ9898

Cadet
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
Hello and welcome to CWT as well as a Merry Christmas from Texas!

I'm not an owner of the Pedersoli Lorenz, and I think I may have made myself a bit notorious on my feelings for the gun. A good description and discussion of it can be found here:


As for its accuracy, I think ammunition may be involved. The reproduction, like the original, uses the "Lorenz compression bullet" as many call it and I suspect if one uses a round ball instead of the proper ammunition, one will be disappointed on accuracy. Also of course there is the fact a lot of Italian made rifle-muskets do have a reputation for inaccuracy out of the box, some would say Pedersoli is exempt from this, I would contend that personally.

If your heart is set on a Pedersoli Lorenz I say go for it, but be sure you get a bullet mold as well, and some books on bullet casting if your uninitiated. If your heart is set on just a Lorenz, well shootable originals can be had for a lot cheaper and they were there so to speak.

If your just in the market for just any good reproduction musket, or rifle-musket I would recommend either the smoothbore or rifled version of Chiappa's rendition of the US M1842 musket in .69 caliber. First off, its .69 caliber! Who wouldn't want to send a bullet that size down range, and in smoothbore you can use buck'n'ball loads. Also while its still off in some areas, its always been one of the closest in shape, weight, and lines to the CW era original, which is always a plus.

Also you have the various reproduction P1853 Enfield's (I recommend the Pedersoli one), and US M1861 Springfields, (I also recommend Pedersoli here, Chiappa's have some issues).

Either way good luck on your search and welcome to the world of shooting black powder, for its addictive.

Thanks for the info and suggestions, I had looked at some .69’s. I watched a good video from what used to be Murphy’s Muskets? On YouTube, and found it to be quite interesting. I thought the Lorenz would be something a little different, and I also enjoy the history of the battles of Soleforino, during the Second Italian War of Independence, and of course the Austrian slaughter at Königgratz. I have heard many good things about the P1853, and some thing about the 1861 reproductions having a 90 degree nipple or something? It would be interesting if I could find out what unit my ancestor was in so I could determine what he was issued.
 

Rusk County Avengers

1st Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Location
Coffeeville, TX
I should think .45-90 would tear pretty much anything to shreds... Including the firer's shoulder! Ouch! :nah disagree::cannon:

Actually the recoil ain't that bad, a full house .30-06 or .308 will out do it by a long shot to me. Surprised me first time I shot one, considering the cartridge is near as long as my hand. That .45 bullet with that much powder behind will tear a near quarter inch steel plate to shreds in three or four shots at 250 yards though. I think the heavy as sin octagonal barrel really dampens the recoil.

Thanks for the info and suggestions, I had looked at some .69’s. I watched a good video from what used to be Murphy’s Muskets? On YouTube, and found it to be quite interesting. I thought the Lorenz would be something a little different, and I also enjoy the history of the battles of Soleforino, during the Second Italian War of Independence, and of course the Austrian slaughter at Königgratz. I have heard many good things about the P1853, and some thing about the 1861 reproductions having a 90 degree nipple or something? It would be interesting if I could find out what unit my ancestor was in so I could determine what he was issued.

Glad to be of help, I know I have a love of Austro-Prussian War history and its guns. The Chiappa M1861's are the ones with the 90 degree flash channel. Works alright if you have a well seated good load, but if its a blank, or smaller powder charge their nightmares.

Here's another good thread that'll get you up to date concerning the Enfield and Springfield reproductions and originals:

 

A. Roy

First Sergeant
Forum Host
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
I really, really like the Pedersoli replica of the Lorenz rifle musket! I do not own one. I've handled one at Gettysburg, and a member of my club shoots one. I've been able to look at an original too.

Some people are a bit miffed that Pedersoli is not replicating the odd quadrangular section socket bayonet for the piece.
As for shooting it with either the Wilkinson-type compression skirt ball, or with a Minié/Burton ball, check out the Hungarian champion muzzle loader Bálazs Németh on his capandball.eu channel. Admittedly, this is promotional for Pedersoli in many ways, but very interesting and informative.

During the actual War of the Rebellion, neither Ordnance department issued a correctly sized .54 Minié for it, and so accuracy complaints were frequent with the originals. With the replica, as advised up post, get the right bullet mould and give yourself some time to tinker with it at the range and you should be happy.

I would caution you that the Lorenz, like U.S. Ordnance of the time, has the metal finished "in the white" or "arsenal bright" and boy is it a job to keep that from rusting on ya...

I shoot a .69 rifled and sightes Model 1842 Springfield. I use powder-puff loads of 3f and a "wadcutter" Minié that is fully 200+ grains lighter than the service cartridge of 80 grains of musket powder behind a 730-gr. Minié. I'd not want to shoot the service load, lest I get a detached retina or something. You may find that a full house .69 is "too much gun." The U.S. Army sure did!

I also shoot a .58 cal. Model 1841 "Mississippi" replica from Pedersoli. Or I should say, "used to" since I oafishly toppled the barrel out of my water bucket while I was cleaning it, and it crashed into my kitchen stove and knocked my front sight off... As a short statured person, I love the

I've said this before, but it's awesome that there are people here who can comment on this kind of question in such detail. And when I use the word "awesome," it's not in the slang sense!

Roy B.
 

Tin cup

Captain
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Location
Texas
I shoot a .69 rifled and sightes Model 1842 Springfield. I use powder-puff loads of 3f and a "wadcutter" Minié that is fully 200+ grains lighter than the service cartridge of 80 grains of musket powder behind a 730-gr. Minié. I'd not want to shoot the service load, lest I get a detached retina or something. You may find that a full house .69 is "too much gun." The U.S. Army sure did!
I believe 70 grains was the charge for the US Rifled .69 Minie/round in converted Muskets. It still kicks pretty good!

Kevin Dally
 

Package4

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Hi I’m new here. I like the history behind the American civil war, and I did have an ancestor who fought and was shot in the hand at stones river. He fought in a regiment from Illinois. I’ve been looking into buying my first B.P. Gun, and I’ve been looking into a Pietta Spiller and Burr reproduction, but first I would like to buy a rifle. The Pedersolli 1854 Lorenz has caught my eye. I have heard many good things about the rifle, but also heard that accuracy can be trouble. Can anyone speak if they have any information or own one? Thanks and Merry Christmas.
I’d buy an original for the price that Pedersolli is asking.
 

Craig L Barry

Sergeant Major
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Location
Murfreesboro, TN
I think most people would get an original in firing condition for the price of a reproduction if one could be found. And in this case, it would not be that difficult to find since the Pedersoli Lorenz reproduction is so costly and the originals are not rare or expensive. Also, not everyone wants to go that route as there a few sensible precautions that must be considered with using any of the limited number of surviving original Civil War artifacts, especially those that shoot. Obviously all of that does not need to be restated here.

The best case I could make for the Pedersoli Lorenz reproduction is if (for some reason) you absolutely had to have that particular model and nothing else would do---not sure why since their P53 and US 1861 are both better reproductions---and you intended to use it for NPS historic weapons demos which expressly prohibit use of original weapons, then it is a better choice than the inexpensive India-made version. Call that a "qualified recommendation." It has a number of cosmetic issues that are not going to be particularly easy to resolve. And the front sight completely renders it incapable of accepting an original bayonet without ruining it. So there it is.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Top