Why Should The Confederacy Have Succeeded To Gain Independence?

What does an independent CSA have to do with communism? Southerners tend to be a rather conservative folk they would have been the last to promote or encourage communism of any description anywhere in the world.
I’m not referring to Southerners going communist, but I think it may radicalize Marx further as he watches from Europe.
 
Its difficult to imagine the US freed from the Confederacy. Once the US was free from supporting slavery, British investment, and German immigration accelerated. If that happens with the Confederacy surviving a little longer, it is hard to envision the Confederacy lasting beyond 1890.
Its interesting to speculate though, both sections might have begun to see their minority populations of Indians or blacks as necessary allies. The US can offer freedom to the blacks, and subsidies to the Indians. If the US becomes more Germanized, the Indians are going to look like potential Cossacks to people familiar with Russian circumstances.
In the real Civil War, the US quickly realized that the African/American regiments were outstanding.
 
Its difficult to imagine the US freed from the Confederacy. Once the US was free from supporting slavery, British investment, and German immigration accelerated. If that happens with the Confederacy surviving a little longer, it is hard to envision the Confederacy lasting beyond 1890.
Its interesting to speculate though, both sections might have begun to see their minority populations of Indians or blacks as necessary allies. The US can offer freedom to the blacks, and subsidies to the Indians. If the US becomes more Germanized, the Indians are going to look like potential Cossacks to people familiar with Russian circumstances.
In the real Civil War, the US quickly realized that the African/American regiments were outstanding.

The continued threat from the US would have compelled the CS to quickly industrialize. The positive thing would be neither country would have sent armies far afield on imperialist conquests with enemies so close at hand.
 
South seceded so as to build their economy. Was it the right approach, obviously not.

Here is one of the Famous Federal Radicals. More that just a few in the Yankee Tax Collector/Land Reformer Ranks

 
South seceded so as to build their economy. Was it the right approach, obviously not.

Here is one of the Famous Federal Radicals. More that just a few in the Yankee Tax Collector/Land Reformer Ranks

So what Communists never came to power in the US.
Leftyhunter
 
So what Communists never came to power in the US.
Leftyhunter

They came to General. Thats Power.

The Republican nomination of Abraham Lincoln for president suited the National Reformers. In making the case for tariffs and "internal improvements," he argued that human labor provided the only just measure of value and asserted that the worker ideally should receive "the whole product of labor"--a concept identified with "Ricardian socialism." He was confronted by what he saw as regressive innovations; he had committed what his partner called "political suicide" by opposing the Mexican War. Through the 1850's, he, like the Agarians, listened to politicians in the North as well as the South who suggested modifying the principles of 1776; also, like the Agrarians, he thought it "endangered our republican institutions," and he made the Declaration of Independence one of the key themes of his 1858 senatorial debate with Stephen A. Douglas. He repeatedly demonstrated an affinity for the developing labor movement and its right to organize and to strike, establishing a record correctly described by one historian as "unmatched in American history" on labor. He had his own copy of Kellogg's book Labor and Capital advocating the government issuance and regulation of paper currency as a just means of redistributing wealth, and he corresponded with the author's son-in-law. His Illinois admirers included land reformers such as John Newlin and B.J.F. Hanna, as well as his close adviser Jesse Wilson Fell and his biographer John L. Scripps. Having repeatedly declared his support for the measure. Lincoln would, as the chief executive, preside over the passage of the Homestead Act. pp122-123 Young America by Mark A Lause

Easy to see why the Liberal Republicans split with Grant. Lincoln's Republican Party died with him. Land Reform had a lot to do with the Civil War.
 
Its difficult to imagine the US freed from the Confederacy. Once the US was free from supporting slavery, British investment, and German immigration accelerated. If that happens with the Confederacy surviving a little longer, it is hard to envision the Confederacy lasting beyond 1890.
Its interesting to speculate though, both sections might have begun to see their minority populations of Indians or blacks as necessary allies. The US can offer freedom to the blacks, and subsidies to the Indians. If the US becomes more Germanized, the Indians are going to look like potential Cossacks to people familiar with Russian circumstances.
In the real Civil War, the US quickly realized that the African/American regiments were outstanding.

wausaubob

If there was a very short war for some reason would the union end slavery and if so on what time-scale do you think? Presuming that the north kept Missouri, Kentucky and Maryland, which would be likely in such a conflict, they would still be slave holding union states, albeit a minimal one in the last case. At this stage Lincoln was still arguing that the war was about secession not slavery and there would probably also be the concern that any move to change tack and end slavery quickly it might prompt a new round of secession's.

Not saying I expect slavery to survive for too long in the north but its likely to be a ticklish problem.

Do agree that slavery would still be weakened with the south no longer being able to hide behind the US flag in maintaining a slave trade. Britain is far more likely to pay a lot less respect to CSA flagged ships carrying slaves, especially with Washington probably supporting the UK on such moves.

Steve
 
Yes, sir, as i cannot seem to quote anything except the post be deleted,
Thanks for your response.
So far as I can tell, the referenced post was not deleted. If you have a concern about a Moderator action, please use REPORT.
 
I will have a hard time explaining the obvious.
So, when Lincoln took office, the country was divided into many streams of thought as to how to proceed. Within two months, the country was taking one side or the other in preparation for some great killings. I'd believe that was polarization. One might take a point of view that Lincoln did not understand what he was doing, but i think he did.
Thanks for your response.
So you yourself have a personal suspicion regarding Lincoln's motives, but no evidence whatsoever to support your speculation.
 
Maryland and Missouri were capable of ending slavery by state action. If the ratio become 22 paid labor states to 2 coerced labor states, a federal, compensated abolition is a probable outcome.
As suggested, though the slave labor nations of the west want to renew the slave trade, if the Confederacy survives, they are up against the British navy and the US navy.
The problem with the surviving Confederacy is that with the southerners out of the US, the US builds up its navy, and it has almost all of the ship building capacity that existed in the former united country.
This leaves the Confederacy in the position of purchasing vessels, or trying to catch up.
Someone suggested that a surviving Confederacy might rationally perceive that the black population is vital, but that depends largely on continued profitability of cotton. If cotton takes a dive, unemployment and under employment create dangerous incentives.
 
If the US hangs on to Kentucky by force, that leaves too many hot spots, E. Tennessee, NW Arkansas, Indian County = Oklahoma, northern New Mexico, and Utah. By 1890 the Midwest can over power the Confederacy by itself, with the NE and Mid Atlantic states supplying the finance and the stuff. If the Great West is tied into the US by a railroad system by then, the temptation to provoke and fight a new war is tremendous. Recall the Franco/Prussian war did not last long.
 
I have just scanned the first and last pages to get an overview of the topic again. The OP is interesting but there is no way to determine what would have happened or how it would have ended. The South had the belief that they had the right to do as they did. It was their fathers and grandfathers that were around for the debates and the votes and that's what formed their thoughts and debates and not push button access to a million pages of internet news and fake news.

I hardly believe South Africa is a good comparison just based on the 2 different cultures et al as stated previously by another member.

Whether Jim Crow would have existed is another dart thrown to the wall. What if depends on too many rolls of the dice.

As to getting back to the actual OP. I can't answer that. The continued existence of slavery would not have been a good thing but I do think it would have generationally died out as people became more personally aware of its immortality . Even the founders so this at our founding as noted in the Northwest Ordinance and the Constitution where they set a date after which slavery could be addressed. It would have withered on the vine eventually if not due to morality then just its eventual cost and inefficiency as technology developed. I am not fluent on all the Confederacy entailed so cherry picking it and bringing it to current day is hard but I will not fault or judge these people 150 plus years later and condemn them for living the times they lived in.

Probably not much in this post academically chew on but some of these posts are just hot air and wishful thinking and hoping. Some of these post are true today without a Confederacy so in some ways we still ended up in the same place just different ways of enslaving the masses.
Not understanding the argument why the Afrikaners and Southern whites are all that culturally different. There laws were substantially the same. Other then their choice of alcoholic beverages they are actually rather close culturally.
Leftyhunter
 
They came to General. Thats Power.

The Republican nomination of Abraham Lincoln for president suited the National Reformers. In making the case for tariffs and "internal improvements," he argued that human labor provided the only just measure of value and asserted that the worker ideally should receive "the whole product of labor"--a concept identified with "Ricardian socialism." He was confronted by what he saw as regressive innovations; he had committed what his partner called "political suicide" by opposing the Mexican War. Through the 1850's, he, like the Agarians, listened to politicians in the North as well as the South who suggested modifying the principles of 1776; also, like the Agrarians, he thought it "endangered our republican institutions," and he made the Declaration of Independence one of the key themes of his 1858 senatorial debate with Stephen A. Douglas. He repeatedly demonstrated an affinity for the developing labor movement and its right to organize and to strike, establishing a record correctly described by one historian as "unmatched in American history" on labor. He had his own copy of Kellogg's book Labor and Capital advocating the government issuance and regulation of paper currency as a just means of redistributing wealth, and he corresponded with the author's son-in-law. His Illinois admirers included land reformers such as John Newlin and B.J.F. Hanna, as well as his close adviser Jesse Wilson Fell and his biographer John L. Scripps. Having repeatedly declared his support for the measure. Lincoln would, as the chief executive, preside over the passage of the Homestead Act. pp122-123 Young America by Mark A Lause

Easy to see why the Liberal Republicans split with Grant. Lincoln's Republican Party died with him. Land Reform had a lot to do with the Civil War.
Lincoln himself stated "the rich man is not the enemy of the poor man. "There was no Dept of Labor during the Lincoln Adminstration to enforce any then non existent labor laws. The rise of the labor moment is decade's away. One minor Communist general does not a communist nation make.
Leftyhunter
 
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