Is the hardcore killing Civil War re-enactments?

R

Rain on Canvas

Guest
Greetings to everyone.I would like to ask a question.Is the hardcore chasing other reenactors out of the hobby and dooming the fate of the hobby in general? A friend of mine and I were talking last night about the declining numbers of people camping out. He pointed out that he has heard that a lot of people are getting out of the hobby due to harrassment by the hardcore.These are people that state parks would praise and said that they did an excellent impression,but since they did impressions that you don't see that much such as telegraph operators,camp cooks,engineers and the like they were told they weren't wanted.The war was much more then just combat military.These people had a lot more to offer the public then just the plain shoot them up.He also said he was getting tired of stupid rules like checking women's undergarments to make sure they were " period correct".That there were not any tents in the war period.He said that he wished the Hardcore would be more understanding.There is not one of us that knows everything about the war and should be open to learning new things and methods of doing things.I believe the public can benefit from all impressions either mainstream or hardcore.But as long as these events insist on putting in stupid rules people will continue to leave the hobby that desperately needs to have new people coming into it.Granted modern items need to be out of sight during the events and inside the tent (if the tents are allowed at all).If tents are not allowed maybe there should be a modern camp grounds set up somewhere out of the sight of the Civil War encampments so all reenactors could participate in the hobby.In closing I think we all should welcome newcomers into the hobby and enjoy each others company.Isn't that what this hobby is suppose to be about?
 
You've mixed two different things into this thread and I think they are not both indicative of the term hardcore as I've come to understand it.

The engineer and telegraph op impressions fit into some state park living history displays and talks or for special occasions and for me I would not classify them as hardcore. More specialized living history. Hardcores eat, sleep, drink, and live period camp and soldier life from the moment they step onto an event site to the moment they leave it. Nothing modern worn, nothing carried. That has become the operational definition of a hardcore reenactor.

Now, there are groups and sites like the Hardcore Campaigner website and forums that have begun organizing specialized events just for those for other hardcores to go out and do total immersion into the period. But, if the event requires it, comply or go find another event. The mainline events have never had hyper strict requirements that I've ever seen. There are usually modern campsites for those who bring trailers as well as period and even areas where those who choose to do campaign style, away from the perhaps period campsites where non-period tents are allowed (1st Manasass and there are a sea of shelter halves, that kind of thing). It is all the call of the even organizers to set a standard.

Personally, I would like to see larger events and not have two competing events if the groups can't agree on standards then you have the choice to attend a smaller, more authentic event or a larger less authentic one and complain about it all day long.
 
The first man who tries to look at my skivvies may get a surprise :smile:

I agree with what you're saying. We all have something to offer in this hobby. And as we, who are participants know, it is costly and takes time to get supplies needed. Where I play the game I have witnessed some pretty mean things from the thread counters. I feel that new comers should be welcomed and treated with much respect. How is one to learn if they can't get their feet wet? Many pity pats have attacked me and many have failed.

My short female 2 cents worth....
 
I fall in the mainstream area of reenacting. I like it there. Some days I can be Farby, other days more, shall we say history correct or heavy. At my period in life age is running to catch up with me so why invest in latest fad or fashion of uniforms and equipment. I shall stick with what I got and replace it with what I can afford or what used pieces becomes available. I just blow off those others who try to improve thier own self asteem by picking on others.
Personally I think number are down due more to things other than a persons impression. Price of gas, the economy in general, the average reenactor age. The younger generation has other interests.
When we went to shiloh this spring, our capt had a truck load of younger guys(if you consider a truck load 3). We met at Fort Henry on the way down. Those younger guys couldn't be more bored. "Who wants to look at a zillion static cannons, or see mounds that may be earthworks". There wasn't a single interactive thing going on, other than the park service movie(same at Shiloh). Nothing they are doing is drawing thier interest in the hobby. They ended up at Wally world and bought some of those guns that shoot those little plastic bb's(name excapes me at the moment). They had more fun shooting at each other than doing the battles, heck they even found a drag track to go to on Friday and Saturday.
Cost of equipment is another factor, Have you priced a new Enfield or Springfield lately? Yes you can buy used at about 1/2 the price but there isn't that many coming available at the time you need one. My son dropped out a couple years ago due to being bored, and lack of promotion in the unit he belonged to Some people get a position and never leave it. Who wants to remain a private for years (other than myself).
 
And who, exactly does these inspections of women's undergarments? The women I've known in the hobby would utilise a cast iron skillet, or something equally lethal on em. Then their husbands would finish the job.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with hardcore, but there is with harrassment and a belligerent attitude. Those who have the knowledge of what's authentic should be teaching those who don't, and leave alone those who choose an activity that doesn't involve a gun or a cannon.

I took a little bit of heat when I chose to be a medical officer, but that went away when they saw the benefits and how support roles can really fill things out.
 
I have witnessed some pretty mean things from the thread counters.

I have seen a group of lame-stream reenacting SCV campers with their tent smacked up against the Georgia Monument (at Vicksburg) putting their trash on it! They also were (with some others) walking around with their shirts off, pot-bellies hanging out in public, all while doing an event at that hallowed ground.​

I too, have seen some ugly things from the non-stitch counters!​

After that Vicksburg fiasco, I determined to do events only with like minded folk. The so-called stitch counters I have been with, are ones that make their own clothing, have done research to make sure they have done it right. They are some of the nicest folk you want to meet, and will gladly share their knowledge. I have been in a skirmish line at Chickamauga that stretched hundreds of yards with guys all over this country, who care about their impression. Nothing beats looking around in a campaigner type camp setting and think how it looks just like what the original soldiers described.

Economics, more than anything is the big factor in​
attendance at events. It is not a cheap hobby to get into, and many that "Claim" they honor their ancestors, unfortunately do it in the worst uniform/equipage you can get. Gas prices, trip expenses, distance all add up $$$ quickly.

A lot of mainstream reenactors don't care anyway about their impression, and will not try to improve.

I'm always looking for ways to improve, and sure don't mind helping someone out who shows an interest in upgrading.

Hey, I'm a nice guy, but I learned early on what events I needed to attend, big mega-fests are not on my itinerary.

Kevin Dally

 
I stopped reenacting a few years ago. I started as a mainstreamer and thought i wanted to progress to Hardcore. After a few years and LOTS of money I had achieved my goal as far as gear went. then I finally was able to fall in with a nationally known Hardcore group for a national event. To my horror what I learned was that the only thing Hardcore was their atitude to everyone else. They did not drill any better, they talked about modern things around camp, ie books , movies etc. the only fifference between Hardcore and mainstream reenactors is the price of the uniforms and kit. Oh yeah, and usually the mainstreamers are alot more friendly. Just my 2 cents...if I knew then what I know now I would not have worked my butt off to get all the hardcore gear for nothing.
 
Apparently mrobeson, you just have not fallen in with the right outfit. I suggest going to events and falling in with different progressive groups. Also there is not one mega event out there that represents the Authenic Campaigner. Smaller events, McDowell, and semi immersion event are the way to go for me. The difference between Mainstream and Hardcore is attitude. And even then there are different seperations within each group. I have seen many good mainstream groups with a proper attitude toward drill and camp life, while I have seen so called authenics that couldn't march their way out of a paper sack. Attitude is the key. As long as everyone is attempting to improve is some fashion, period jargon, camp cooking, uniform, drill, camp life, 1st person impressions, living history demonstrations, then all is well. However the wrong attitude will just breed contempt within the outfit and without over time.

I fall into the category of Progressive. I hang out with outfits with like minds. I do not look down on a non defarbed musket or a uniform not up to high standards, as long as the person is Wanting to improve is some way. Most improvements are not about money anyway. I can hang with a fun loving hardcore outfit, or a mainstream progressive and enjoy myself because they have the right attitude.

That said, most negative comments and complaints I have heard in the 37 years in the hobby have come from the mainstream side of it.
 
Come to think about it... this post, is giving me ideas for a "You may be a FARB", line of jokes.

Example: If your outfit allows 11 year old boys to carry a flag (or any weapon) on the field, You may be a farb. That said this can degenerate into the things I hate at a reenactment post. LOL.

Hey! Just sayin..... :wink:
 
These are people that state parks would praise and said that they did an excellent impression,but since they did impressions that you don't see that much such as telegraph operators,camp cooks,engineers and the like they were told they weren't wanted.

For what it's worth, I almost never portray a private soldier, and I've not had trouble getting into what many folks would consider "hardcore" events.

There are plenty of different events with different standards, so there really is something for everyone. I don't see why organizers who choose higher standards should be expected to lower them, as long as they feel they're getting enough participants to meet their goals.
 
I stopped reenacting a few years ago. I started as a mainstreamer and thought i wanted to progress to Hardcore. After a few years and LOTS of money I had achieved my goal as far as gear went. then I finally was able to fall in with a nationally known Hardcore group for a national event. To my horror what I learned was that the only thing Hardcore was their atitude to everyone else. They did not drill any better, they talked about modern things around camp, ie books , movies etc. the only fifference between Hardcore and mainstream reenactors is the price of the uniforms and kit. Oh yeah, and usually the mainstreamers are alot more friendly. Just my 2 cents...if I knew then what I know now I would not have worked my butt off to get all the hardcore gear for nothing.

That brings up a good point. Clearly, someone who does those things isn't more accurate, whatever they claim. After a few bad experiences, unfortunately people get the idea that that's all that exists, and they don't stay with it long enough to discover what other options really are available. It's one reason I'm hesitant to say that I reenact. People either assume I attend mainstream events, or if I try to explain in more detail, they picture what you're talking about, because that's all they've ever seen. And yes, I've been burned with those false promises of higher accuracy too.

Even at events where everyone is supposedly trying to meet higher standards, there are groups who do what you describe, whether it's allowed by the rules or not. But there are also groups--I don't mean official "units," I mean unofficial groups of like-minded people who come together for a particular event--who really do try harder overall.

As far as friendly, I've found that like-minded people are the friendliest, however they reenact. Groups want people who do what everyone else in the group is doing, and use peer pressure to enforce it.
 
I have enjoyed time spent with all of the above at events; campaigners, main stream and Farbasaurus'. I have enjoyed the time spent speaking with and interacting with the folks, from both sides of the fence. I have seen very little dressing down first hand, but have read many, many threads on various sites where the mowing scythes come out in force. As my wife delves deeper into the hobby, she is encountering the same sort of cyber superiority.

I believe the folks who, from the safety of their computer, absolutely attempt to destroy ones ideas, or hard work both a great disservice to the hobby in general. I will give an example of something was telling me the other day. A lady shared a picture of a dress she had made, and considered it her favorite dress. The pattern was period correct, the trim was period correct. The donnybrook arose over whether the material was period correct. The way the discussion went, a few "experts" went on like the woman was wearing an ABBA spandex hootchy mamma suit.

In my opinion, this was a golden opportunity to encourage a fairly new person in the hobby and suggest, in the most friendly manner, that the person might want to consider making their next dress in that pattern from wool. Instead, a woman who worked for weeks was "virtually" assaulted and is giving serious consideration of never attending another event. As Mason, I am keenly aware of diminishing membership and see the hobby in the same boat. More should be done to encourage new folks, and their ladies, instead of driving a wedge. The guys will always be interested, but if you can get the ladies behind you, or at least tolerate their guys going off, the kids generally follow. That is the way to keep the hobby going.

There are a number of reasons folks make the selection of materials or kit items they do. Many are grounded in the realization they just do not have the money to purchase the materials or items which are historically correct, so they make do with something more economical. Sometimes, the materials themselves are no longer available, since the modern world no longer has a massive demand for the material or item. Finally, there are times when the experts just have it set in their minds that their way is the right way and there is no way anything else is accurate.

For instance, peg soled brogans. Go to any unit site and they will say that peg soles are more accurate than anything else. Yet, some time last year, a member of this group, posted some statistics from the Federal Quartermaster Corps. Of the 7 million plus pair of brogans manufactured and issued during the war, only 289,000ish were peg soled. The rest were sewn. So in the eyes of some experts, the 6.7 Million ish men who received brogans during the war, got the wrong thing. Another example, I was looking over a sutler's collection of shirts. They were finely made of quality materials and nice buttons. He and I were talking about the work my wife had done on my shirt. After his initial, great job comment, he immediately went to the buttons, stating "a shirt like that would have had small glass buttons, why do you have tin buttons?" My response was honest and straight forward, "I told my wife to use tin buttons for two reasons, I like the way the look and I can button my shirt. My big crippled hands would never get those little shinny buttons buttoned." When I got home, I looked up a few sites who had shirts similar to the sutler, who was doing a hard sell on the fellas and found the exact shirts he was selling for $95.00 1880's Wahmaker shirts.

Another issue with the fashion police. Who really knows what was available and what was not. My wife has a fabric reference tome, covering fabric designs from the 17-21 century. As you may imagine, most of the fabrics and designs we see today were not in the book. Does that mean they do not exist? I read an account of a calico textile manufacturer in England, who visited France four times a year in the late 17 early 1800. According to this fabric design bible, there were about 20-30 calico patterns from 1760-1880. A strict interpretation would say, if the pattern is not one of the 20-30, it never existed. But the first hand account of a manufacturer who would visit France four times a year to see what they were doing solely in calico, leads me to believe much of what was out there was ever changing and never made the books.

Photographic evidence is great, but must be thought through. Folks who had their pictures taken, no cheap thing in those days, made a point of wearing their best. Museum pieces, specifically ladies dresses, little of no wear in the train (something rarely seen in reproduction dresses.) Additionally, there appear to be no stains. So 6-12 inches of fabric, which would have dragged the ground behind the lady is neither soiled or frayed, this in an age of no paved side walks.

I think folks made do with what they had. Sure they tried to emulate the latest Paris fashion, but made do with what they had and what they could afford. Federal issue is one thing, but when looking into the items a soldier received from home, who really knows. Boys from the South, anything would be possible.


One last thing thing ( I know I am rambling) To this day, I wear cloths which were in style in the early 20th century. My closet is full of Filson garments which are no different today than they were in 1907. I have two Strollers which would not be out of place in pre WWI Scotland or England. I still wear shirts, pants and boots which are older than my sons. My rambling point here is the world did not halt and begin spinning anew in 1861 and folks who think they know everything probably do not. One thing is for sure, never say never. It might be rare, but rare is not never.
 
After spending 11 years researching and 4 years building and *many* thousands of dollars constructing a wheeled Traveling Forge that would cost $30 to $50 thousand dollars for someone to have a professional carriage builder recreate part by part from the government detailed factory drawings and specifications, I still hear whining about correctness in what I am presenting from those that would never even attempt to construct a wheeled Traveling Forge or even a bellows (not to mention the tools and tooling to build the wheels, or the cost of my other equipment, a real period anvil, a real period correct wagon vise, etc.). When I started researching and reverse engineering a semi-portable forge shown in a picture on the monitor Lehigh for example, the whining intensified to the point that I stopped sharing the research information on it. The complaints always seem come from those that purchase their equipment and not from those that research and try making their own equipment, especially from the instant experts that as soon as they put on their costume that they purchased suddenly become experts on *all* things Civil War. Sadly, there will always be people that feel the need to put down others in order to feel better about themselves. If I was a moderator on the forum, I would limit or curtail the criticism of others, especially the I'm-better-than-you-are postings.
 
Getting back on the horse, where are the abolitionist, anti war and food shortage impressionists. These folks existed, in numbers large enough to gain attention in the papers of the day, yet I rarely see one at an event. I was glad to see a few Confederate folks at Harper's Ferry giving us occupiers the business for taking over their town. Another under represented aspect of the war. I suspect a number of lady spies would have been working the crowds at Balls and receptions of the day as well, but again, rarely seen today.

Where is the press? Surely a number of journalists would be lurking around near major battles writing their by lines or sketching a soldier or two. Photographers seem to be well represented.

Instead of making a snit about the accuracy of a five button jacket or an 1863 being used during a 1862 reenactment (which the public would never know at the 50-100 yard distance they are observing from) encourage folks to pursue their interests in the hobby. Giving tips and assistance is much more well received than lam basting the poor sap.

I believe everyone would like to give the best impression possible. Not everyone has the means to step onto their first field in 100% authentic kit and garb, but over time, these folks, given the proper encouragement, direction and sound advice, will become the ambassadors the fanatics wish them to become.

As in the old adage, a few rottens apples can spoil the whole bunch, a few folks on witch hunts can drive off many folks who may have shown an interest in the hobby.
 
Huh. I dunno. Guess I'm seeing a different angle of the hobby. I spent, in actual dollars, a bit more than unicornforge mentioned, in building and furnishing a replica functional civilan home, barn and surrounding land, and offering it free to reenactors. Civilian reenactors had been complaining about needing to pretend tents were houses, or only being able to use porches of real homes, or things not being accurate enough, so I thought they'd love this.

The criticism I got was pretty severe, but not what I expected--it was too accurate, nobody would want to live like that for a weekend, using an outhouse, drawing water from a cistern, milking a cow, eating period food, with no modern stuff in sight--although the modern health/sanitary issues were taken care of, the water was tested, etc. They said nobody would actually want to come and pretend all weekend to be in the period; they wanted to talk about modern stuff. A "hardcore" military unit said they'd come and camp in the field one weekend and do us the favor of making it more accurate. I said okay, the basic level of accuracy means no modern talk except in an emergency and no hidden modern items other than medical needs. You can meet those basic standards, right? Well, they kinda got busy and never scheduled a weekend.

The few reenactors who did come were very nice and supportive, because they were looking for something like that, but clearly there's a large hobby of people who go to events and complain about things not being accurate enough, but when offered more accuracy, don't really want it. I dunno. I don't get it.

Since then, there's been more change in the hobby and one can find events with reenactors who are more enthusiastic and supportive of that basic mindset--even if the reproduction settings available sometimes require a lot of imagination. I've not run into a situation where if I can document something, people argue that it's still not accurate. There seems to be a fair amount of understanding about practicality, lack of availability, etc., and the difference between researching the way things actually were vs. the way they need to be portrayed.

But again, it goes to the issue of "like-minded people." If everyone in a group is used to so-and-so as the local guru who never gets questioned, certain things being good enough, and less rigorous standards of documentation, and somebody new comes in just assuming that having an intense interest in learning about the past means questioning, asking for documentation and sharing research that would pass academic peer review, the first group is going to feel like they got hit with a steamroller, and lash back.

Personally, outside of events, I like being questioned and criticized, because it helps me find my mistakes or dig deeper for documentation; I want the discussion to feel like peer review so I know folks appreciate my research and they're offering equally good stuff. So I gravitate toward people like that, and stay away from the ones that seem hostile, who of course aren't hostile at all to folks with the same mindset as them, and all is good.
 
Is the hardcore kiling the hobby? I would say NO. If anything, I think it is HELPING the hobby. More and more mainstream reenactors are starting to demand higher quality, many mainstream vendors (I refuse to use the word sutler) are upping thier game, as are more reenactors. The problem comes from miscommunication on both sides of the aisle. There are Jerks everywhere, no matter the hobby. Think of it this way, what do some golfers who belong to huge exclusive and expensive country clubs think of golfers who hack around the local public course? And what do some of the public course duffers think of Country Club golfers? same thing. I have met some wonderful folks on the History Heavy side of the aisle, and I know some great people on the Mainstream and Progressive side. I have had folks that helped point me toward a better understanding of material culture, and likewise helped others. The problem comes from the theme campers who are more into hanging out, burning powder, and cracking beers with the boys (not that there is anything wrong with that) who refuse to improve, and the Hard Kewls (who are also looked down upon by the History heavy side) who can dress the part, buy the coolest new widget, and then hang out on Sutler Row and make snide comments with no offer of help, or if they do, its unsolicited. Now, you have two extremes working at opposite ends (sound familiar?) And then you have the key board Kampaigners, who may have reenacted in the past, and are now content to sit safely behind thier computer and bash the **** out people, because they know they will never meet them in the field. The problem we are facing right now, is the fact that some of us are getting longer in the tooth, and there is getting to be less and less disposable income out there as Gas prices go through the roof, and the economy is staggering on the ropes. Hobbies cycle, and CW is just in a down turn. I would hazard to guess that once things improve economically, and more people get back to work and there is more money out there, then things will pick up.

(DISCLAIMER: I apologize if any political material snuck in, I tried to keep it apolitical. Please do not read support of any candidate or party into this. Note that I did not mention ANYONE or Any Party.)
 
Getting back on the horse, where are the abolitionist, anti war and food shortage impressionists. These folks existed, in numbers large enough to gain attention in the papers of the day, yet I rarely see one at an event.

I think it just depends on where you go. In the last couple of years, I've seen ladies riot for bread. I ran a boarding house where we ran out of meat and were stretching cabbage, sweet potatoes and indian meal as far as it would go. I attended an abolition speech and rally up north last spring, and will be portraying an abolitionist myself later this year.

I suspect a number of lady spies would have been working the crowds at Balls and receptions of the day as well, but again, rarely seen today.

The good ones aren't noticed, if they're good. I've heard of smugglers after events who got through, and one fellow in town turned out to be a spy, durn it, and I probably leaked some information to him. I was working with one female spy at another event, who didn't get caught.

Where is the press? Surely a number of journalists would be lurking around near major battles writing their by lines or sketching a soldier or two.

Come to think of it, the only journalist I do recall was a fellow with Sherman's bummers. That was the event where a couple of us were escaping from Andersonville, and after two days in the woods, we were more interested in the food than talking to him. That was the event I learned you can eat green corn raw.

I believe everyone would like to give the best impression possible.

Actually, I disagree. I think everyone is looking for a level where they're comfortable. They may work up to that level gradually, but beyond that, it wouldn't be fun for them. It's good to encourage people who want to improve, but over the years, I've seen people try more accurate events and fit in perfectly, say they had fun, not suffer any criticism, and yet, they go back to their friends and have just as much fun at mainstream events, because that's what they want out of their weekend. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, as long as there are a variety of events available for different tastes.

I think what fosters some of the criticism is when people assume that everyone's goal is to be as accurate as possible/practical, rather than accepting they're perfectly happy doing what they're doing, and they don't really care about improving.
 
Huh. I dunno. Guess I'm seeing a different angle of the hobby. I spent, in actual dollars, a bit more than unicornforge mentioned, in building and furnishing a replica functional civilan home, barn and surrounding land, and offering it free to reenactors. ...The few reenactors who did come were very nice and supportive, because they were looking for something like that, but clearly there's a large hobby of people who go to events and complain about things not being accurate enough, but when offered more accuracy, don't really want it. I dunno. I don't get it.....

Well gee, lets see, actual dollars. How about almost 10 acres of woods, fields and stream, a genuine typical 1800s bank barn, and genuine typical 1800s farm house that were bought with real money. The barn is chestnut post and beam, joined with wooden pegs and a ship-lapped main beam. I will not count the 3,100 square foot blacksmith/wheelwright shop since I did most of the construction myself over a couple a years, so I guess I should have spent the time earning money and paying someone else to build it so it would count. I have been thinking about letting my reenactor associates have access for an encampment, if and when the need arises but around here my place isn't needed because we don't need to replicate as there are plenty of real historical areas to play in. I already provide access to my shop and equipment to a chosen few. There is even an area of marsh in the woods complete with rodents and snakes in case anyone wants to authentically experience what it was like sleeping in Manassas marshland. I didn't realize this was a contest, but I still have a pretty strong notion that I spent more both in cash and especially in the years spent doing the authentic thing and that means building stuff myself.

Barn Shop buildinga and Traveling Forge.jpg

Sorry but you come across as condescending. If you want to impress me.... well not impressed yet. I am more impressed with those who are humble rather than those who brag and put others down.
 
To JBW and UF,
I applaud both your efforts, your zeal and your passions. It is unfortunate more units are not taking advantage of the opportunity you both have offered. Spending time in a 19th Century farm, does wonders to put folks into the proper mind set of what it was like. As kids, my brother and I experienced that lifestyle with the exception of having electricity. To this day, I loved everything about our farm and wish I had the $3 or $4 Million to buy it back. My brother on the other hand, still has no great love for the pioneer lifestyle. In fact, three weeks ago, he took his wife and kids down to see the place and for the first time in his life, did not require a barf bag crossing the 5 mountains to get there.

For folks who's idea of roughing it is Motel 6, that life style is an eye opener. For folks that go to events and sleep on the ground either in a tent or under the stars, they believe they are roughing it. But to actually experience what the men and women from our past not only endured but thrived in, a week or two living in hand made house, with no running water, electricity or heat, slopping hogs, mucking stalls, chopping wood, feeding chickens, cutting and loading hay, shearing sheep, milking cows, slaughtering stock, working in a garden from 1-100 acres, one begins to have a true appreciation with what our ancestors were like.

I think it is great you both have opened your places up to other to share with them a life style which, outside certain religious sects in this country, has vanished. Based on the descriptions you both gave, the places sound like my idea of heaven.
 
Back
Top