Patrick Cleburne

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The wife and I are heading to Franklin next month for the first time. I am very much looking forward to retracing his final movements from Spring Hill to the doomed frontal assault near the Carter Cotton Gin. Hopefully I can get some good pictures to post here on CWT.
Be sure not to miss the pyramid of cannonballs that mark the approximate site where his horse was killed and the monument to him on Winstead Hill:

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Be sure not to miss the pyramid of cannonballs that mark the approximate site where his horse was killed and the monument to him on Winstead Hill:

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I saw the pile in front of the Cotton Gin House to the Confederate right. The Cotton Gin House is one hell of a sight. Going inside, I was shocked to find so much light in the room pooling through; it took me a few moments before it clicked: these were bullet holes...countless bullet holes.
 
I will also note, I believe it was in Castel's Decision in the West, where I read the claim that Cleburne came to America with a "Saracen Sword" which had been the family heirloom. I highly doubt this claim, and I don't recall any mention of it in Symonds' book. Seems like some mythos formed around him by folks like Buck, people who were close but didn't know much about him on a personal level, as mentioned in previous comments.
 
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I saw the pile in front of the Cotton Gin House to the Confederate right. The Cotton Gin House is one hell of a sight. Going inside, I was shocked to find so much light in the room pooling through; it took me a few moments before it clicked: these were bullet holes...countless bullet holes.
Interior of the office at the Carter House.
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This might be a silly question, but why was Cleburne known as the "Stonewall of the West?" Aside from Cleburne's being a highly effective combat commander as was Stonewall, I don't really see what other real similarities there are between the 2 men. Cleburne was essentially a division commander, whose responsibilities did not rise to the level of Stonewall's as a corps commander. Stonewall had independent command at times, and at others, was Lee's close associate. But Cleburne did not have that type of command, and certainly did not have that type of relationship with his army commander, Bragg. Cleburne and Stonewall were both strict disciplinarians but Cleburne was not as secretive, eccentric, or as unforgiving as Stonewall. Stonewall's fame was predicated on his keen ability to maneuver and outwit enemy forces; Cleburne's strength was being a highly motivational commander whose forte was driving his brigades and regiments to the attack. Finally, Stonewall Jackson rose to the historical level of southern icon, and without taking anything away from Cleburne, I don't believe Cleburne attained the same stratospheric level of reputation.
 
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Be sure not to miss the pyramid of cannonballs that mark the approximate site where his horse was killed and the monument to him on Winstead Hill:

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To be clear the cannonball pyramid had nothing to do with Cleburne. I was part of the group that chose to place that memorial and it is a simple Civil War battlefield memorial, but somehow over time it has become attributed to Cleburne.
 
This might be a silly question, but why was Cleburne known as the "Stonewall of the West?" Aside from Cleburne's being a highly effective combat commander as was Stonewall, I don't really see what other real similarities there are between the 2 men. Cleburne was essentially a division commander, whose responsibilities did not rise to the level of Stonewall's as a corps commander. Stonewall had independent command at times, and at others, was Lee's close associate. But Cleburne did not have that type of command, and certainly did not have that type of relationship with his army commander, Bragg. Cleburne and Stonewall were both strict disciplinarians but Cleburne was not as secretive, eccentric, or as unforgiving as Stonewall. Stonewall's fame was predicated on his keen ability to maneuver and outwit enemy forces; Cleburne's strength was being a highly motivational commander whose forte was driving his brigades and regiments to the attack. Finally, Stonewall Jackson rose to the historical level of southern icon, and without taking anything away from Cleburne, I don't believe Cleburne attained the same stratospheric level of reputation.
I believe the moniker was put on him by newspapers after his actions at Ringgold Gap. It was a desperate time for the Confederacy, after a year of defeats. The public wants good news, and a new hero to replace the many fallen officers of that year. And here comes news of a Confederate general performing a perfect rearguard action, holding off a Union corps from destroying a Confederate army. You can say Cleburne stood like a stone wall at Ringgold Gap...and that's why the moniker was put on him.
Of course, that moniker makes a needless comparison between the two men. To me, they are both brilliant generals in their own right, of varying degrees in one area or another. Cleburne was one of the best defensive commanders of the war; Jackson's record on defense is spotty. Cleburne emphasized firepower and accuracy; Jackson valued hard marching.
 
The next book on my 'to read shelf' is Stonewall of the West by Craig L. Symonds. I do not know too much about Cleburne and I guess that I will lean more about him. Cleburne does seen like an interesting soldier. Does anyone have a comment on the book? What about General Cleburne?

Stonewall of the West by Craig L. Symons is a very readable comprehensive chronology of Cleburne's life, especially during the Civil War. Would definitely recommend it.

At the end of 1862, Patrick Cleburne was promoted to Major-General, in command of a Division in the Army of Tennessee. Cleburne was probably the best combat Division commander in the Army of Tennessee, and one of the best in the Confederacy. Some of his most outstanding fighting performances occurred in defensive or rearguard actions, like at Missionary Ridge, Ringgold Gap and Pickett's Mill. He was one of the first Confederate generals to organize formations of highly-trained specialist sharpshooter units which he put into effective use on the battlefield.

At the end of 1864, he was tragically killed leading his Division in a suicidal frontal assault ordered on an entrenched Union position at Franklin.
 
Its a good read. I've heard some criticisms of his book, and I see more citations from the Perdue & Perdue biography (which I don't have) than Symonds' book. But its an informative read. Great starting point I feel for the man.
Oh! I'll want to check that out. I have "Stonewall of the West." But I haven't read it yet. I'm planning to go in-depth on my Hill relatives who were in Cleburne's devision.

This one, right?
"Pat Cleburne: Confederate General Hardcover" (1973) by Howell Purdue and Elizabeth Purdue
 
Oh! I'll want to check that out. I have "Stonewall of the West." But I haven't read it yet. I'm planning to go in-depth on my Hill relatives who were in Cleburne's devision.

This one, right?
"Pat Cleburne: Confederate General Hardcover" (1973) by Howell Purdue and Elizabeth Purdue
Yeah, heard they go more into detail on his battles and such than Symonds does.
 
I am part way through the Symonds book. So far it is fairly good. The battles are not covered in to much detail. If one wants detailed coverage of a particular battle, they can always read a book on that battle.
 
To me, they are both brilliant generals in their own right, of varying degrees in one area or another
Well said. It is probably also worth mentioning that Cleburne was unfortunately involved at least to some extent, in 2 major controversies (the anti-Bragg cabal, and the plan for the enlistment of slaves), that may have diminished southern enthusiasm for him. In contrast, Jackson's iconic status only got bigger after his untimely passing.
 
He was also adept on the offensive as seen at Perryville and Stones River.

Agree with you. Cleburne quickly earned a reputation amongst his peers as an attacking General who led his troops in a fight.

As a Brigade commander, Cleburne's offensive abilities were seen during the Kentucky campaign, at Richmond and Perryville; then later, as a Division commander, at Murfreesboro (Stones River).

Perhaps he is best remembered for his numerous steadfast defensive efforts during the Chattanooga and Atlanta campaigns, resulting in him being called the 'Stonewall of the West'.

Cleburne never commanded a Corps for any reasonable period. He had a very brief stint as the temporary commander of Hardee's Corps at Jonesboro. Here, the heavily outnumbered Confederate force experienced a decisive defeat.

Lt. General William Hardee, was Cleburne's good friend and mentor. Hardee regarded Cleburne as a superb Division commander, who could be relied on to follow orders and achieve desired outcomes in combat. However, Hardee believed Cleburne lacked the independent initiative to effectively command an entire Corps. There is no doubt that Cleburne was an effective combat leader in the field. However, he was probably unsuited to the politics of high command and likely lacked the organizational abilities (or intent) to effectively co-ordinate and deploy the commands of many units in a whole Corps.

This raises an interesting question. Would Cleburne have made an effective Corps commander in the Army of Tennessee?

Maybe this can be the subject for a new thread.
 
Perhaps he is best remembered for his numerous steadfast defensive efforts during the Chattanooga and Atlanta campaigns, resulting in him being called the 'Stonewall of the West'.
In my post #28, I asked why Cleburne is called the "Stonewall of the West." While I consider Cleburne to be one of the best Division commanders in the Confederacy, the differences between him and Jackson are wide enough to wonder why the comparison. In his post @Luke Freet, speculates that the title was bestowed on Cleburne by southern newspapers in order to promote morale. Seems like a rational reason, but there are still real differences between the 2 men.
 
In my post #28, I asked why Cleburne is called the "Stonewall of the West." While I consider Cleburne to be one of the best Division commanders in the Confederacy, the differences between him and Jackson are wide enough to wonder why the comparison. In his post @Luke Freet, speculates that the title was bestowed on Cleburne by southern newspapers in order to promote morale. Seems like a rational reason, but there are still real differences between the 2 men.
Agree that it is difficult to see how Cleburne could have been considered equal in status with Jackson and given the same nickname. They were significantly different.

No evidence was found that Cleburne was ever described as the 'Stonewall of the West' by anyone during the war.

In 'Stonewall of the West', Craig L. Symonds states at page 158 (following the retreat from Chattanooga), …"Cleburne's steadfast performance in the field…..provoked Jefferson Davis to christen him the "Stonewall of the West"..",… However, Symonds later corrects this assertion in endnote 2 at page 288, saying that historians invented this label and what Davis actually said was that Cleburne's men …"followed him with the implicit confidence that in another army was given to Stonewall Jackson"…

It seems plausible to think that this description of Cleburne was a term created and somehow popularized by post-war writers.
 
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