Kentucky Derby Cavalier.
First Sergeant
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2019
Thoughts?
Bridging is a specialized topic, though, and the Antietam is such that musket fire can reach across the entire creek (50-100 feet width) but it's also way too wide for a few planks to get across it. This means it takes long enough for the enemy to react, and attempting to build a bridge within range of the enemy can take days even if done by specialist troops and only harrassed by a few sharpshooters (cf. Fredericksburg).I think my point was missed. The troops were not given orders to bridge the creek. If two brigades assault the stone bridge while two other brigades throw timbers over the creek at two different points, the Confederates could not defend.. One or two crossings might be stopped, but not all three.
Lee may have had 40,000 men late in the afternoon after many of his brigades had come up from Harper's Ferry. But I have read countless sources for many years stating that he did not have more than 30,000 in the morning when the battle opened. Had McClellan attacked on both flanks at once in the morning Lee would have been smashed. Burnside blew it when he wasted most of the day before attacking the CS right.How? all his units with the exception of less than a division of infantry was committed and used in the attacks or to cover units was was completely disordered. He had no organized formation to be more aggressive with.
His army was really not that much stronger than Lee's.
Yes it was larger, but the units came from 3 different armies, a large portion of his men was completely green and some even untrained. Way fewer of his commanders was experienced at the level they held command.
(take a look here:should give you the part of experience.
And when I say larger, Iam not talking the 2-1 or even 3-1 you sometimes see claimed.
(jump to about 36:30 in the video for the part about the army strength)
McClellan had about 87.000 men... some days before the battle. According to himself. But he really had no idea how many men he actually had.
And that number include everyone with the army, including everyone doing none combat jobs, all officers, artillerymen and cavalry.
And that count is taken a few days before the battle so the actual number on the day would be smaller, since the federals was strangling just as Lee's men where.
Lee claim that he had 40.000 men at the battle.
That is not wrong, but in this number he is only counting men in the ranks with a musket.
It do not include officers, artillery or the men driving wagons and doing other none combat jobs. (Some being soldiers... others being slaves or free colored men)
The Lecture give a 7-4 advantage for McClellan.
I will stop after this.Bridging is a specialized topic, though, and the Antietam is such that musket fire can reach across the entire creek (50-100 feet width) but it's also way too wide for a few planks to get across it. This means it takes long enough for the enemy to react, and attempting to build a bridge within range of the enemy can take days even if done by specialist troops and only harrassed by a few sharpshooters (cf. Fredericksburg).
With hindsight it might have gained the bridge earlier, but what it actually took to capture the bridge was pretty simple: put artillery on the high ground to drive off the Confederate batteries covering the bridge.
The idea Lee had not more than 30,000 troops in the morning when the battle opened is a deliberate construction of the Lost Cause, aided and abetted by people who wish to present McClellan as incompetent (on both sides of the Civil War).Lee may have had 40,000 men late in the afternoon after many of his brigades had come up from Harper's Ferry. But I have read countless sources for many years stating that he did not have more than 30,000 in the morning when the battle opened. Had McClellan attacked on both flanks at once in the morning Lee would have been smashed. Burnside blew it when he wasted most of the day before attacking the CS right.
Your points are well taken.The idea Lee had not more than 30,000 troops in the morning when the battle opened is a deliberate construction of the Lost Cause, aided and abetted by people who wish to present McClellan as incompetent (on both sides of the Civil War).
The first question is how are you measuring the troops? There are several possible categories, and for the purposes of this examination I will look at four of them, plus touch on a fifth.
These categories are:
1) The number of regiments. Simple enough, how many regiments were there in each formation.
2) The number of brigades. Ditto but brigades; simple enough.
3) The strength PFD as of the opening of the campaign, before straggling. For the Union this is straight from their records, but for the Confederacy we must use the values in Harsh which are in the comparable measure - regulation PFD - or work it out by taking their reported strength after Antietam and add back the number of casualties they claimed to have suffered in the Maryland Campaign.
4) The Effective strength, which is the strength a unit had actually able to fight when the battle began on the 17th (or when the unit was engaged). This is often much smaller than the strength PFD, because of straggling and because regulation PFD includes some of the men who were doing other jobs.
5) The strength Aggregate Present, which is basically the "roster strength" or "payroll strength" or "ration strength". This is the largest measure with a consistent meaning, and spies could often get at this number more easily than others because an army needs to know how many men it's paying or feeding more often than it needs to know how many men it has fighting.
For those units commonly considered to be "at" Antietam - including the 6th Corps and Morell's division - the first two are easily stated. Lee had 185 regiments in 39 brigades, McClellan had 188 regiments in 39.5 brigades. Of those brigades at least six of McClellan and five of Lee arrived after the main fighting in the north, so in brigade terms and in regimental terms one could argue that McClellan was outnumbered when he launched his attack at Antietam! (He certainly launched while two divisions of Porter, Couch's division and two divisions of Franklin were still marching to the field, so his army was less complete than that of Lee.)
For the third category, the same inclusive categories of units gives:
87,000 Union PFD. (This is the number often used as "McClellan's strength", though he never had all these units at strength on the field at one time.)
75,000 PFD for the Confederates. This number may seem startlingly large, but it's true - the Confederate army shortly after Antietam reported 64,000 PFD and it suffered over 13,000 admitted casualties at Antietam itself, and there are reasons to think their admitted casualties are an underestimate (such as no record of casualties existing for some regiments and a few entire brigades).
This does not mean I'm claiming there were 75,000 Confederate soldiers at Antietam, certainly not in the firing line. What I'm claiming is that by the same measure as one could say "the Union had ~85,000 troops at Antietam" one could say "the Confederacy had over 70,000 troops at Antietam".
It should be noted here that McClellan's numerical strength was swelled by a number of new regiments who were still quite close to establishment but who were also extremely weak in combat; one regiment couldn't even fire their weapons when they were called upon to do so at the battle of Shepherdstown, and so the fighting value of these regiments was much less than their numerical strength illustrates. By contrast just about Lee's entire army was veteran.
So by the first two measures Antietam is an even battle, and by the third measure McClellan had only a small numerical advantage. What about Effectives?
Well, the usually reported value for Confederate strength in total effectives is via Carman, and there are a number of problems with it. 67th goes into greater detail in a post on his blog, but for now it will suffice to note that Carman's estimate of Confederate effective strength ascribed only 1,784 infantry and 310 artillery to Jackson's entire division - while Starke (one of Jackson's brigadiers) claimed his brigade had a strength of 1,400-1,500 infantry in action at Antietam.
Even Carman's numbers - which discount three brigades, two of them with AP Hill, as never engaged - give the total Confederate strength in engaged as around 38,000. 67th re-examined Carman's numbers and found it to be fairly reasonable to ascribe ca. 42,500 Confederate effectives before AP Hill arrived and another ~4,500 arriving with AP Hill.
However, whether you consider engaged strength to be ca. 40,000 (adding back the brigades Carman missed) or ca. 47,000 (correcting the estimates of Carman which are more dubious) this number cannot be compared to the 87,000 number for the Union as it is not the same category. Doing the same check for "engaged" on the Union side gives numbers more in the range of 55,000 for those units that arrived at the field on the 17th (i.e. everyone but Couch and Humphreys).
What this means is that the strength ratio at Antietam after AP Hill's arrival was:
185:188 (regiments)
39:39.5 (brigades)
75,000:87,000 (PFD pre-straggling)
45,000:55,000 (Effectives, rough)
What this tells us is that McClellan's regiments were on average somewhat larger and held together somewhat better.
Before AP Hill arrived but counting all Union troops who did arrive the numbers were roughly:
162:188 (regiments)
34:39.5 (brigades)
66,000:87,000 (PFD pre-straggling)
40,500:55,000 (Effectives, rough)
Or, to put it another way, if Lee only had 30,000 men on the battlefield before AP Hill arrived - and suffered over 10,000 casualties to those units - how is it that shortly after Antietam he reports his strength as over 60,000?
The issue is that McClellan similar never had his full strength. His hard big problems with stranglers too.Your points are well taken.
The answer to how the ANV recovered so quickly is not that complicated. Many troops never crossed the Potomac...and Lee was receiving returning wounded, especially from the Seven Days.
Lee probably had 45,000 men in Maryland with no exact number possible;maybe 50,000. DH Hill's division was the largest and had not been at 2nd Manassas. It would be hard to determine how many men he got into Maryland, and what his casualties were, as they had been substantial. That division alone adds mystery.
I think McClellan did well not to attempt an absolute decision, as it might not have been favorable to his side.
That's not really credible. The sheer number of troops that would have to not cross the Potomac doesn't hold up.The answer to how the ANV recovered so quickly is not that complicated. Many troops never crossed the Potomac...and Lee was receiving returning wounded, especially from the Seven Days.
Lee probably had 45,000 men in Maryland with no exact number possible;maybe 50,000. DH Hill's division was the largest and had not been at 2nd Manassas. It would be hard to determine how many men he got into Maryland, and what his casualties were, as they had been substantial. That division alone adds mystery.
Great assessment about that phase of the Vicksburg Campaign.I see everyone so far is concentrating on the Eastern Theater. So, just to be different, let me throw out as one of the greatest lost opportunities of the war was Joe Johnston not holding onto Jackson, MS and essentially giving it up without a fight during the Vicksburg Campaign. Had he held Jackson for just a few more hours, not even days, his "Army of Relief" would have swelled with the reinforcements that were being hurried to him by rail from all over the South. With Pemberton to the west with the Vicksburg army and Johnston's gathering forces to the east, Grant, with only a tenuous supply line back to his Grand Gulf enclave might have literally found himself between the proverbial "rock" and a "hard place." He could have conceivably lost the Army of the Tennessee, cut off and surrounded by superior Confederate forces in hostile territory. That would have no doubt ended his career. Then what would have happened in the Eastern Theater?
Not so sure about the "superior" bit.He could have conceivably lost the Army of the Tennessee, cut off and surrounded by superior Confederate forces in hostile territory.
The CSA commissary was not doing much to supply troops after 2nd Manassas, soldiers writing about it are pretty unanimous. A lot of soldiers did spread out on the countryside to find something to eat. The Confederates had some provisions at Winchester, and soldiers seemed to collect there. .witnesses in Maryland seemed to be counting Blacks in the ranks. If they are counted, then, yes, Lee's army was much larger than some claim..That's not really credible. The sheer number of troops that would have to not cross the Potomac doesn't hold up.
You're suggesting that 25,000-30,000 men hung around in northern Virginia with no established supply train for a period of more than two weeks - which would require literal tons of food per day and would make them one of the larger cities in the state. It is not feasible that this many men could be wandering around without being noticed; they would be literally everywhere and eating all the food, and Walker's route of march (which took him through a fairly wide sweep of northern Virginia) would have been running into hundreds of them.
As it happens, we have plenty of eyewitness reports of various components of Lee's army and they also agree with a strength in the vicinity of 75,000. Jones, Hood, Evans, Jackson, Ewell, AP Hill, McLaws and Anderson are described in Steiner's diary as "not more than 64,000 men"; DH Hill is in the same source as "8,000". Walker's division is described as "6,000" and Stuart's cavalry are counted in none of these categories.
The main body (Jones-Anderson inclusive) is also described as taking almost an entire day to march through Frederick (18 hours) which is about right for 60,000 (based on the usual rule of thumb that with eight to ten hour marches about 30,000 men can fit down a road in a day).
Do I think these eyewitness accounts are correct? Not all of them, no; some of them are clearly exaggerated. But the report I listed (Steiner) is actually among the lowest estimate of strength for a component of Lee's army relative to the real fraction of his army it represented.
Yes, which is how armies have operated for thousands of years. Most of them didn't shed nearly half their strength during a critical campaign, though...The CSA commissary was not doing much to supply troops after 2nd Manassas, soldiers writing about it are pretty unanimous. A lot of soldiers did spread out on the countryside to find something to eat.
If you count the highest reported strength for each unit you get:witnesses in Maryland seemed to be counting Blacks in the ranks. If they are counted, then, yes, Lee's army was much larger than some claim..
But 50,000 by what measure? Certainly there was massive straggling, but not much more than in the Union army where out of a list strength of 14,856 Meade claims the 1st Corps only took about 9,000 into battle (as an aside, the 3rd division was so wrecked on the afternoon of the 17th that it only had about 300 men in line).I will accept 50,000 as a number for Lee's soldiers at the main fight. I just cannot make myself believe he was able to do better than that.
I hope we are not disagreeing about anything but specifics. The point is that Lee was not as disadvantaged numerically as many histories claim.To quote from an article by Thorp on the topic:
In his after-action report, McClellan claimed that his men buried 2,700 Confederates on the Antietam battlefield and captured 6,000 more. He could only guess at the number of wounded, but he estimated it was 18,742 men, using the ratio of killed to wounded for his own troops.
This stands in stark contrast to Confederate reports, which claimed losses of 1,674 dead, 2,292 missing and 9,451 wounded — a total of 13,417. Even discounting the wounded, the discrepancy between the two reports is almost 5,000 casualties.
Which is right? The burial grounds would indicate that McClellan’s number is closer to the truth. More than 3,300 dead rebels specifically associated with the Antietam campaign can be found buried in the Confederate cemeteries in Hagerstown, Frederick, Shepherdstown and Winchester. This number is larger than McClellan’s because it includes bodies buried by the Confederates themselves as well as those who died shortly after the battle.
As for the captured Confederates, McClellan’s medical director, Jonathan Letterman, reported 2,500 wounded under his care following the fight. At least another 2,500 unwounded prisoners of war were transferred from the battlefield to Forts Delaware and McHenry, bringing the number of captured rebels to more than 5,000 — much closer to McClellan’s figure than Lee’s. This would make what is already America’s bloodiest day even more horrific than previously thought, and it would mean McClellan did more damage than he is credited with.
Lee filed his first return five days after the battle, noting the count is “very imperfect” and does not include cavalry or artillery. It states that on Sept. 22, he had at least 36,418 infantry. Adding a conservative number of 5,000 for the missing cavalry and artillery units would bring his total to about 41,000 troops at the end of the campaign.
Eighteen days later, on Oct. 10, Lee filed his first complete report, which showed 64,273 present for duty. This number is significant because Lee had not received a single new regiment to replace his losses; nor did he receive many, if any, recruits because the February draft law had already pulled every eligible man into the army by early summer.
If we add Lee’s reported campaign losses of 13,417 (which, as already noted, are too low), it would show that Lee started the campaign with at least 75,000 men.
Most historians will explain this away by citing the Confederate claim that almost half of Lee’s army — 30,000 soldiers — straggled behind. Where is the corroborating evidence? The Official Records show that some 5,000 rebels moved to Winchester at the start of the campaign, then on to Lee’s army after Antietam, but what about the rest? How could any rebel straggle in Maryland — as many Confederates claimed — and not be captured by the Union army, which immediately occupied every post the retreating Confederates vacated? If the straggling took place in Virginia at the start of the campaign, who fed these 25,000-plus soldiers? Who led them? How did they all get back into Lee’s army so quickly through countryside most had never been in?
The simple answer is that that Confederates had suffered a major loss and needed some way to explain it. While straggling undoubtedly occurred in the last few days before Antietam, 30,000 men were not missing for most of the campaign.
Oh, indeed - this is certainly the key point.I hope we are not disagreeing about anything but specifics. The point is that Lee was not as disadvantaged numerically as many histories claim.
Taking the initiative wasn't Johnston's style, I agree. However, at Jackson, Johnston would have had, as you noted, more than a third of the number of troops available to Grant, and prepared defenses stiffened by substantial artillery. Grant didn't have 3:1 odds (lets roll the die). Assaulting that position with the troops at his disposal would be no guarantee of success.Manoeuvre is something else, though - but I can understand why Johnston wasn't eager to go after a besieging force in excess of 2.5 times his own size!
I might not be following. How exactly does Johnston relieve the siege of Vicksburg by standing and waiting for Grant to attack him?Taking the initiative wasn't Johnston's style, I agree. However, at Jackson, Johnston would have had, as you noted, more than a third of the number of troops available to Grant, and prepared defenses stiffened by substantial artillery. Grant didn't have 3:1 odds (lets roll the die). Assaulting that position with the troops at his disposal would be no guarantee of success.