it wasn't the New Englanders' faults, They were only responsible businessmen

New England didn’t want Slavery to Die Out. They just didn’t want it to Vote!
So that's what it was all about? The 3/5 Compromise, banning the importation of slaves, conflict over extending slavery into new territories, secession, the rebellion....
Who knew?
Nobody!
Recall that in the Constitutional Convention, New Englanders were willing to let Blacks vote so long as they were first freed. So long as they were considered property- like horses and plows- they opposed their voting which would have greatly increased the already powerful influence of the slave states in the national government.
 
So that's what it was all about? The 3/5 Compromise, banning the importation of slaves, conflict over extending slavery into new territories, secession, the rebellion....
Who knew?
Nobody!
Recall that in the Constitutional Convention, New Englanders were willing to let Blacks vote so long as they were first freed. So long as they were considered property- like horses and plows- they opposed their voting which would have greatly increased the already powerful influence of the slave states in the national government.

New England participated in Slavery other Places than here. AntiSlavery sentiment here but not so for Cuba, Brazil and Other Places around the World that were huge drivers of NE Wealth. It wasn’t all about Cotton.

The Republicans vowed not to attack Slavery here and Lincoln was willing to give it 50 Plus Years. So, It don’t appear Republicans were hyper sensitive to Slavery as long as the South Paid Their Taxes. Something they refused to do.
 
What says ye all.

Inspired by
How much in debited was the Southern plantation system to the Eastern bankers and merchants? What better way to collect on a debt than to use the political system to promote a war in which the result would be that the defeated would have to sell their land way below market value and worse to become sharecroppers on land that they had once owned. Then using their political influence these merchants would be able to collect on their debts and take control of the production of future cotton ,tobacco,and rice markets. With political came the military which would enforce the laws that would permit this.Theory, but it may have been this way for certain gentlemen in the East.
 
How much in debited was the Southern plantation system to the Eastern bankers and merchants? What better way to collect on a debt than to use the political system to promote a war in which the result would be that the defeated would have to sell their land way below market value and worse to become sharecroppers on land that they had once owned. Then using their political influence these merchants would be able to collect on their debts and take control of the production of future cotton ,tobacco,and rice markets. With political came the military which would enforce the laws that would permit this.Theory, but it may have been this way for certain gentlemen in the East.

It's amazing that these bankers and merchants were able to get the Southerners to secede and then fire on a starving garrison. Evil geniuses all.

Ryan
 
How much in debited was the Southern plantation system to the Eastern bankers and merchants? What better way to collect on a debt than to use the political system to promote a war in which the result would be that the defeated would have to sell their land way below market value and worse to become sharecroppers on land that they had once owned. Then using their political influence these merchants would be able to collect on their debts and take control of the production of future cotton ,tobacco,and rice markets. With political came the military which would enforce the laws that would permit this.Theory, but it may have been this way for certain gentlemen in the East.
Interesting. Need facts and figures and a whos so of this conspiracy.
 
The Illegal slave trade had become a fundamental, interlocking component in a global system of investment, credit and commerce. The rise of this trade was not inevitable, Instead, it was the result of the incorporation of the foreign policy apparatus of the Early Republic state--including diplomatic appointments and the dispatch and aggrandizement of the U.S. Navy--into the service of the private trade networks of elite '15ers. Mush of the Cuban plantation regime operated as a nineteenth-century Caribbean gulag: a heavy militarized system of slave camps that depended on a constant influx of enslaved Africans. That a pro-slavery, anti British U.S. foreign policy could defend "free trade" in the Americas while encouraging the expansion of the Cuban slave regime and the illegal slave trade was not a contradiction. Instead, a represented a guarantor of circuits of global commodity and specie trade, linking the United States with Europe, Africa, the Americas and Asia. Although true annexationist ambitions would arise in the United States years later, in the earliest decades of the nineteenth century, the growth of informal American empire in Cuba depended on "status quo" Spanish rule. The Monroe Doctrine represented one of the most decisive enunciations of this foreign policy.
As the generation of 1815 passed away, the world they had created--a network of economic development built on Cuban slavery and the slave trade--endured. Although some of the elite '15ers had miscalculated or withdrawn their investments in Cuban slavery, many had not. The success of elite members of this generation in translating their financial investments into state influence and naturalizing their fortunes is evident in the celebratory accounts of their eventual worldly demise. As Robert Dalzell has suggested, law, culture and financial power helped to justify and sustain the existence of the vast fortunes accumulated in these turbulent decades of the nineteenth century, When John Quincy Adams's old benefactor and Ally William Gray died in 1825, he left an extensive estate worth approximately $900,000, not including more than $1 million he was owed in unpaid European claims. His antiquarian biographer and descendant Edward Gray eulogized Gray in a celebratory manner: "All through his life Mr. Gray worshipped truth, and made it a point that his word should be as good as his bond. . .He had strong convictions and the courage to live up to them." More recently, Frank Cassell described Samuel Smith's 1838 funeral procession as being composed of "thousands of plain citizens [who] spontaneously joined the procession. Unlike the others these people had no official reason to be present; only genuine sorrow and respect could explain their actions. Indeed, the lives of the elites who had worked to protect the expansion of the U.S.-Cuba trade and the slave trade with the apparatus of the U.S. State have spawned an entire reverential historical genre.
George Hose's antiquarian account of James D' Wolf's 1837 death is more revealing. Although Howe was himself a descendant of D'Wolf he could not easily ignore his predecessor's obvious and persistent links with the trade, James D' Wolf had been among the first American investors to arrive in Cuba, and he remained one of the most aggressive and unapologetic supporters of the slave regime as he rose from slave ship captain to U.S. Senator, When D'Wolf died, he left an estate--which included Cuban plantations: lands and distilleries in Rhode Island, Maryland, Kentucky and Ohio; Cotton mills; financial investments' and numerous ships--that was valued at more than $5 million, reportedly making him the second-richest person in the United States. pp169-170 No God But Gain by Stephen Chambers.

So, these weren't rogues that were participating in the Slave Trade and the Slavery Institution. These well funded families were the NE Ruling Merchant Class. Latter invested and ran Insurance Companies, Banks, Manufacturing and other Business in NE and elsewhere. This is Slavery Capitalism that has been hidden and ignored.
 
If there is a broad indebtedness owed by a section of the country, the last thing the creditors want is to have the economy in that section disrupted or destroyed. That conspiracy theory is a non starter.
True. A war to force their debtors to surrender their property is an insanely risky gamble. In fact, by "turning abolitionist" all those Yankee financiers and industrialists were, by uaskme's account, acting against their own financial self-interest. Sounds rather admirable to me, putting principle over profit.

jno [a.k.a. Evil Yankee from the Dark Side:
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If there is a broad indebtedness owed by a section of the country, the last thing the creditors want is to have the economy in that section disrupted or destroyed. That conspiracy theory is a non starter.


This brief statement adequately describes the general feeling in New York business circles. It was the "screaming uncertainty that had brought merchants who had previously denounced the administration for its determination to enforce the laws, to a point where they criticized the same administration for its inaction. To the general uncertainty created by the war of tariffs was added the uncertain status of Southern debts, amounting, let it be recalled, to more than $125,000,000. To be sure, the merchants still received letters from Southern traders , assuring them that they would pay their debts by next fall, but most reports from the South emphasized that merchants and planters "seemed to delight in the fancied release from their obligations secession gives them." John Bigelow describes the effect of this information upon a leading merchant,
He had not a word to say in condemnation of the South till they stopped paying him [he noted in his diary], On the contrary he used to try me terribly last winter by his silly obstinacy in defending the pro-slavery politicians. He was for surrendering Fort Sumter and letting the cotton states go without resistance. . . Fortunately for his patriotism, they have refused his to his country.

The attitude of this business man was typical, for it was definitely clear to all merchants by this time that there was only one way by which their Southern debts could be secured. As the merchants themselves put it in a memorial to President Lincoln, "At present, there are no means of collecting any portion of these debts, not can there be, until the authority of the United States government is re-established in the rebellious states. pp302 Business and Slavery by Philip Foner

Not much has changed, Business don't like uncertainty! The Yankee Business Community changed their position when the situation changed from the Threat of Secession to actual Secession. They thought that with Secession, their interest and a stable environment would be better served in the Union.
 
Let me ask a clarification question. What "fault" are we talking about in this context, slavery?

Not sure what you are asking. The OP is pretty clear, New England ran the international slave trade.

New York protected it, until the bitter end.

Yes, their customers were hungry for more, but these guys in the North were the 'drug dealers' of the 19th century.
 
Interesting. Need facts and figures and a whos so of this conspiracy.
Again as stated this is only a novel approach to why the East may have wanted to go to war or just a theory.This in reply to the question of the East having responsibility for the war.The real truth would be that every section of the country could and should bear responsibility for this war.The history of the country would show that each contributed to the events which led to the war.The people as with any war failed to seek any resolve to the issues over time.Each generation passed it to the next one to deal with,starting with the creation of the Constitution.It seems as though each generation failed the next ,failing to understand what the outcome was to be.They failed to heed the voices which warned of the judgement . It could not happen ,it would not happen and when it did no one knew how to avoid it .This is theory and the theory is based on trying to seek why this horrific event happened .Willing to accept any interpretation based on facts which may present a understanding of WHY? THANK YOU
 
Not sure what you are asking. The OP is pretty clear, New England ran the international slave trade.

Not sure how you don't know what I'm asking, can it be any more straightforward than:
"What "fault" are we talking about in this context, slavery?"

I mean obviously I'm asking what the fault is. Not sure I could've worded it any more clearly.

Also the OP includes

"Of course, it wasn't the New Englanders' faults, They were only responsible businessmen who had every right to make a profit –and a handsome profit it often was."

You might notice the context of fault isn't included, I didn't see where this was stemmed from, hence instead of assuming it was slavery I figured I'd ask for clarification.

So is the fault being attributed to New Englander the international slave trade specifically or the system of slavery (which was far more involved than just the slave trade?

Again I don't want to assume incorrectly and respond pointlessly, one should welcome requests for clarification rather than challenge them.

New York protected it, until the bitter end.

How did New York "protect" it and clarify "bitter end" please... Events, actions, etc would be valid sources to back up such a claim.

Yes, their customers were hungry for more, but these guys in the North were the 'drug dealers' of the 19th century.

That's not a very good analogy. Drug traffickers is more accurate, the dealers were the slave markets mostly in the South. Unless you are arguing the Northerns controlled the slave markets in the South.


Additionally, in context to the whole New Englanders and the international slave trade, I started a thread about who owned the slave ships

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/who-owned-slave-ships.143347/

Do you have some source that proves "New England ran the international slave trade. "

The first piece of data I found there suggested Britain might be a better candidate with about 66% of slave ships flying the flag of Great Britain.
 
The Republicans vowed not to attack Slavery here and Lincoln was willing to give it 50 Plus Years. So, It don’t appear Republicans were hyper sensitive to Slavery as long as the South Paid Their Taxes. Something they refused to do.
Thanks for your response.
Nothing to do with taxes or any other ulterior motives.
Often realism tempers idealism. Republicans realized that immediate emancipation as called for by abolitionists would cause hardship. In order to mitigate that disruption, they considered gradual emancipation a more practical solution.
 
As an aside, the 'flag' in the database is not dependable. It is assumed to be the last port of call and one can find 'US flagged' ships prior to the revolution.

Thanks, I don't disagree. I expressed a lack of confidence in it being the best metric, unfortunately it was probably the only easy metric to get. I'm still waiting for all the people I've heard for a long time now claim it was all New Englander's reference their better source against that :smile:

It's certainly possible, I'm open to the evidence and data, but I figured such a strong claim for so long had some backbone. Care to guess how long I'll be waiting?
 
Still baffled by the slide of responsibility. Have seen exactly no one deny slavery pretty built much this country, North and South. Something as ugly as enslaving humans is a little hard to hide- no one is. This idea whereby 4 million humans were working for the benefit of the North, is a desperate extension of ' they did it, too '.

The New York section in Gettysburg National Cemetery is by far the largest. 6,700 NY men died there. Seems so odd, from a state protecting slavery.
 
Eastern Money interest convinced the populist Slavery was a Threat to Northern and Western White Mans Interest.

The Federal Government being AntiSlavery, which in Cuba and other places it was Not. The Federal Government saying it had outlawed the Slave Trade, which it was supporting, using the Navy to do so. Ruse about keeping the South out of Cuba because they would make it a Slave State, whoops, it’s to late, the Federal Government and New England already had made it a Slave State and would never let Cuba go.

Maybe everything you have been told, isn’t true. Maybe the Republicans used some of these IDEAS to get what they wanted. Political Control of the Government. Yep a lot of bodies were stacked up. A Slave had a life span of about 7 Years in Cuba. That’s why they call it the Atlantic Graveyard. Politics and Greed does that.
 
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