kepi
First Sergeant
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2015
- Location
- United States of America
Spot on 100% correct. If you want to include oppressed then you can include the USAI don't know about the United States but there certainly was Irish servitude slavery for a better word used by the English government to oppress the Irish people just look at Australia or other colonies Jamaica Trinidad Haiti.
While I like Liam Hogan's work and can't stand the white nationalist memes that have arisen from the "Irish Slave" theme, I note that there are some problems with his argument."Slave" is a term that is used much too loosely. For that reason, I often use some version of "chattel" when writing about slaveholding in the antebellum period, because it reflects legal ownership of property, rather than a contractual arrangement between individuals, no matter how exploitive that might be. It's fundamentally different than things like indentured servitude.
I don't know about the United States but there certainly was Irish servitude slavery for a better word used by the English government to oppress the Irish people just look at Australia or other colonies Jamaica Trinidad Haiti.
Their is a big difference between being an indentured servant vs being a slave.I don't know about the United States but there certainly was Irish servitude slavery for a better word used by the English government to oppress the Irish people just look at Australia or other colonies Jamaica Trinidad Haiti.
Your first point is less definitive than you think. There were black slaves who were to be held for a fixed time who were still considered slaves.Their is a big difference between being an indentured servant vs being a slave.
1. An Indentured servant only serves for a fixed amount of time.
2. The Indentured servant's master can't sell their children or spouses.
3. Child workers were just that child workers. Yes it was cruel bu as adults they could quit and do something else with their lives.
Far right groups are just using the"Irish were slaves" myth because they hate black people.
Leftyhunter
My understanding is an indentured servant serves for seven years and then is free. The servants children cannot be sold.Your first point is less definitive than you think. There were black slaves who were to be held for a fixed time who were still considered slaves.
I was not responding to this definition of indentured servants. I was responding to your contention that unlike a slave, an indentured servant only served for a fixed amount of time. There were Northern states that adopted gradual emancipation programs in which slaves were to be freed at a fixed future date. Even though the date of freedom was predetermined, they were still considered slaves until that date.My understanding is an indentured servant serves for seven years and then is free. The servants children cannot be sold.
Do you have examples of American black slaves who met the above definition. If so what percentage were they of the overall slave population.
To clarify an indentured servent meets the above definition.
Leftyhunter
Its like I commented earlier, some indentured servants were placed into the custody of their masters, it was a lifetime of servitude. Also the master could sell part or whole of the contract which in turn could separate families.Their is a big difference between being an indentured servant vs being a slave.
1. An Indentured servant only serves for a fixed amount of time.
2. The Indentured servant's master can't sell their children or spouses.
3. Child workers were just that child workers. Yes it was cruel bu as adults they could quit and do something else with their lives.
Far right groups are just using the"Irish were slaves" myth because they hate black people.
Leftyhunter
I think the numbers quoted for Irish enslavement has been exaggerated, King James issued a proclamation for the deportation of 30,000 Irish political figures and I think the vast majority were sold into slavery, there's no denying that a large number were purchased by English sugar plantation owners. I'm not sure if the English had a deliberate policy for enslaving the Irish but if they did it was pretty well disguised, the practice of degrading the Irish was a speciality of Cromwell, the numbers in the Irish population had almost halved under his rule.I get the "Irish were slaves too" thing is blown entirely out of proportion by the far-right groups to derail African-American antebellum slavery, but weren't a lot (not as many as Africans though) actually enslaved against their will after the Cromwellian Conquest of Ireland in the 1600's?
I get the "Irish were slaves too" thing is blown entirely out of proportion by the far-right groups to derail African-American antebellum slavery, but weren't a lot (not as many as Africans though) actually enslaved against their will after the Cromwellian Conquest of Ireland in the 1600's?
Thanks for the links.A lot of the misinformation was started due to the release of "White Cargo."
Liam discusses that in one of the articles in his series. Find a snippet below.
Via Liam Hogan from Medium:
Cromwellian era forced deportations from Ireland to the British West Indies did not begin in earnest until May 1653 and the total number forcibly deported during the Cromwellian era is roughly estimated by scholars (Corish, Watson, Akenson, et al) to have been around 10-12,000 people. The paucity of records ensures that we will never know the exact number. Kerby Miller (Emigrants and Exiles, 143), Robin Blackburn (The Making of New World Slavery, 247) and Matthew C. Reilly (“Poor Whites” of Barbados, 6) estimate that “several thousand” were banished. These estimates are educated guesses based on contemporary population figures for the islands, allowing for a high mortality rate, pre-existing Irish populations and concurrent voluntary emigration.
The “300,000 Irish slaves” claim is a spectacular exaggeration. There is no scholarship or even logic behind this number. It appears that the meme has taken the guesstimate on the blurb on the back cover of White Cargo (by Jordan and Walsh) and applied it to the Cromwellian era forced transportations from Ireland. Keep in mind that this appropriated guesstimate refers to all the indentured servants and convicts who were transplanted to the British American colonies from Britain and Ireland over a 200 year period.
Irish Slavery is also a FAQ on Reddit's Ask an Historian.
Here is the link for the FAQ's below: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori..._slavery_vs_indenture_and_.22irish_slavery.22
Slavery vs Indenture and "Irish Slavery"
- Are there any sources regarding irish slavery in the Caribbean
- Were there Irish slaves that were legitimate chattel? by /u/Irishfafnir
- Were Irish ever brought to North America as slaves? by /u/sowser
- Was owning slaves in the US limited solely to black people? Could somebody own white slaves? by /u/sowser
- How valid is the claim that there were white slaves in the USA post-colonisation? by /u/sowser
- Are there any records of white people being treated poorly and used as slaves by darker skinned rulers in any civilizations? by /u/sowser
Yep. It's a convenient deflection.Since this story has been on the Internet and the release of "White Cargo" -- anywhere where the TransAtlantic Slave Trade, Black history, reparations, etc is discussed online, social media/reddit included -- people -- many of Irish descent make comments like "get over it, my ancestors were slaves too - you don't see us complaining,"