Custer Custer the American Hero?

Many thanks for such a detailed response, I found it interesting that you said that you 'have a far harder time trying to justify the 1876 Sioux War vs the 1866 Red Cloud War from the perspective of the U.S. Government'. I would really like to know why that is, however, I have no wish to steer the conversation away from the OP post despite the fact that I'm finding the subject of Red Cloud's war fascinating. Could you point me in the right direction for further information on the subject, are there any books that you could recommend? Ideally I would like a book that offers a decent overview of the situation from 1863 onwards.

I have seen a few books on the subject but most tend to focus on the after effects of the war, I was thinking that maybe the book Defending the Land: Causes and Effects of Red Cloud's War written by Nadia Higgins would be a good start but there doesn't appear to be any reviews for it.
Regards
Waterloo

Let me see if I can find the college paper I wrote, there were a couple of books that gave perspectives from the Sioux, Crow, and U.S. Army. They may not be the easiest books to find as I got them from the university library. I will try and do that tonight.

I've been to Little Big Horn twice and Fetterman twice. Fetterman is a smaller site, but just as interesting in its own way. Some people don't realize that the LBH battlefield is about five miles long.

I want to go to both again.

Plus Sheridan, Story, and Buffalo all offer nice places for tourists to eat some grub (Buffalo go Winchester's for steak) and rest their heads.
 
Let me see if I can find the college paper I wrote, there were a couple of books that gave perspectives from the Sioux, Crow, and U.S. Army. They may not be the easiest books to find as I got them from the university library. I will try and do that tonight.
That's very kind of you.:thumbsup:
 
I've been to Little Big Horn twice and Fetterman twice. Fetterman is a smaller site, but just as interesting in its own way. Some people don't realize that the LBH battlefield is about five miles long.

I want to go to both again.

Now if dreams came true and I could go anywhere....."Half a league, half a league, half a league, onward....."
Aaah, the Valley of Death, the Crimea is to you what Little Bighorn is to me.:thumbsup:
 
Absolutely. This map is very skeletal and incomplete, but I just put it there as an illustration. As a matter of fact on the West Coast, in both CA (6th US Inf) and OR/WA (7th US Inf) there were multiple operations of the US Army against Native people right before the ACW. And most of the officers stationed there (like Hancock and Armistead whose story is kinda known over there) were manning forts and clearing the land from Natives who were actually pushed into Mexico in many instances, before the War broke. California looks like an empty slate in that map, but check this out. California itself spent $850,000 from 1850-1859 to fund military actions against the "Indians". Same with Utah, btw, but that's another story...

I have to laugh at that $850,000. In the 70s California decided to settle all Native claims by giving everybody a settlement. Big real estate boom, you see, and a lot of piddling little tribes and bands making a fuss. So they pulled out a rather attractive sum then deducted the $850,000 plus a hundred-odd years of interest and paid the leftover amount to anybody who could prove they had one drop Indian, even if it wasn't California Indian. Should have seen the Natives pour out of the woodwork! :laugh: Most got a couple hundred - if they applied for it. Turns out, they sent you the check even if you didn't apply so if you cashed it, they could say you'd agreed to drop any claims... Again, a lot of Indians didn't catch that part! Mom's tribe had a huge area and they'd been almost exterminated during the Gold Rush - it worked out to less than 30 cents an acre. (And no beads...:mad:)
 
I know this is a bit off topic but I had to post Chief Joseph's surrender speech......I used to have it up at work where only I could see it easily. It really stirs up mixed emotions for me every time I read it.

Tell General Howard I know his heart. What he told me before, I have it in my heart. I am tired of fighting. Our Chiefs are killed; Looking Glass is dead, Ta Hool Hool Shute is dead. The old men are all dead. It is the young men who say yes or no. He who led on the young men is dead. It is cold, and we have no blankets; the little children are freezing to death. My people, some of them, have run away to the hills, and have no blankets, no food. No one knows where they are - perhaps freezing to death. I want to have time to look for my children, and see how many of them I can find. Maybe I shall find them among the dead. Hear me, my Chiefs! I am tired; my heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands I will fight no more forever.
 
it worked out to less than 30 cents an acre. (And no beads...:mad:)
That made me chuckle, the Romans invaded Britain on three separate occasions, by the time Claudius arrived with his four Roman legions most of the tribes in Britain had already established trading relationships with Roman traders, so for the most part, a lot of Celtic tribes thought that it wasn't a bad thing to be under Roman rule. There was however one tribe in particular 'Iceni Tribe' the British version of the Apache, that caused nothing but trouble, they wouldn't give up their lands, they wouldn't live under Roman law and they certainly wouldn't trade with the Romans, I guess that they just didn't like beads.
It seems that just about every army has its Custer, the Roman equivilant would be Publius Quinctilius Varus, he lost three Roman legions in the Teutoburg Forest at the hands of the Germanic tribes.

Boudica of the Iceni, note, No beads.:smile:
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That made me chuckle, the Romans invaded Britain on three separate occasions, by the time Claudius arrived with his four Roman legions most of the tribes in Britain had already established trading relationships with Roman traders, so for the most part, a lot of Celtic tribes thought that it wasn't a bad thing to be under Roman rule. There was however one tribe in particular 'Iceni Tribe' the British version of the Apache, that caused nothing but trouble, they wouldn't give up their lands, they wouldn't live under Roman law and they certainly wouldn't trade with the Romans, I guess that they just didn't like beads.
It seems that just about every army has its Custer, the Roman equivilant would be Publius Quinctilius Varus, he lost three Roman legions in the Teutoburg Forest at the hands of the Germanic tribes.

Boudica of the Iceni, note, No beads.:smile:
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There you go! Check out the tats, though - lots of big medicine. That was also Nelson's tribe - they cranked out the fighters. :thumbsup: His dad's side had Vikings and Scots, so he was just born to kick somebody's rear! :D
 
That made me chuckle, the Romans invaded Britain on three separate occasions, by the time Claudius arrived with his four Roman legions most of the tribes in Britain had already established trading relationships with Roman traders, so for the most part, a lot of Celtic tribes thought that it wasn't a bad thing to be under Roman rule. There was however one tribe in particular 'Iceni Tribe' the British version of the Apache, that caused nothing but trouble, they wouldn't give up their lands, they wouldn't live under Roman law and they certainly wouldn't trade with the Romans, I guess that they just didn't like beads.
It seems that just about every army has its Custer, the Roman equivilant would be Publius Quinctilius Varus, he lost three Roman legions in the Teutoburg Forest at the hands of the Germanic tribes.

Boudica of the Iceni, note, No beads.:smile:
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HMS Boadicea, a cruiser which served in World War I, one of several RN ships honoring the warrior queen.
300px-HMS_Boadicea_%281908%29.jpg
 
There you go! Check out the tats, though - lots of big medicine. That was also Nelson's tribe - they cranked out the fighters. :thumbsup: His dad's side had Vikings and Scots, so he was just born to kick somebody's rear! :D

My home, the place where I was born was home to the Catuvellauni tribe, the name Catuvellauni means 'Battle Leader', it was led by High King Caratacus. they fought hard against the Romans, when the tribe was led by king Cassivellaunus it took on the might of Julius Caesar and his legions, they were a kind of resistence force and they pretty much used the same tactics as the Plains Indians, lots of skirmishes and a few minor battles but mostly hit and run. They eventually succumbed to the might of Rome and were forced to remain in their allotted tribal area, it was only when the Roman expeditionary force which was led by Caesar started to withdraw that the Catuvellauni started to expand and take on the other Celtic tribes, It strikes me that there are many similarities between the British tribes and the Native American, both fight for their freedom, both fight to preserve their lands, both are subdued and forced to remain in settlement areas and both have to sit and watch an invading force strip the land clean of its natural resources.
 
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My home, the place where I was born was home to the Catuvellauni tribe, the name Catuvellauni means 'Battle Leader', it was led by High King Caratacus. they fought hard against the Romans, when the tribe was led by king Cassivellaunus it took on the might of Julius Caesar and his legions, they were a kind of resistence force and they pretty much used the same tactics as the Plains Indians, lots of skirmishes and a few minor battles but mostly hit and run. They eventually succumbed to the might of Rome and were forced to remain in their allotted tribal area, it was only when the Roman expeditionary force which was led by Caesar started to withdraw that the Catuvellauni started to expand and take on the other Celtic tribes, It strikes me that there are many similarities between the British tribes and the Native American, both fight for their freedom, both fight to preserve their lands, both are subdued and forced to remain in settlement areas and both have to sit and watch an invading force strip the land clean of its natural resources.
cassivellaunus.gif

as albert uderzo sees cassivelaunus
 
God I love the internet. Here I am, sitting in Virginia, reading the conversation of an Englishman and a German taking very polite jabs at one another. I would just point out that Noel Coward admonished us "To not be beastly to the Huns."

if i do that seriously they quite surely manage to drag the yanks into it - again :D
 
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