Custer Custer the American Hero?

I am reading "The Earth is Weeping" by Peter Cozzens... I rather good read, well documented, worth reading about the wars against the Indians...

That's a good read. One thing I've often found a little disturbing in histories of the Indian wars is the mere footnote that so-n-so fought in the CW. The Civil War had a huge impact on what happened in the West and how it shaped the commanders who conducted the wars against the tribes. Cozzens uses his CW background well.
 
Eric's description of Custer as a "flamboyant man child" seems a good choice of words to me. His Civil War exploits seem underappreciated and overshadowed by LBH and his actions against Native Americans, but he seems like the kind of person I would want to punch in the face if I spent 5 minutes with him anywhere except a battlefield.
 
At the LBH, Custer's luck and ammunition ran out.

....and as I’ve said before, he underestimated the qualities of the Lakota/Cheyenne soldiers and leadership, but so did Crook at the Rosebud (and for that matter the rest of the US Army at the time).

IMO, those Lakota/Cheyenne/Arapaho fighters were the best irregular light cavalry the world has ever seen. Picture a mounted soldier, guiding a horse with his knees, while working his repeating rifle, and possibly using the horse’s neck as a shield. That’s some cavalryman.
 
This is such a well-written piece, Eric, and even though it's about the third time I have read it, I am amazed at how well it captures my complicated relationship with Custer. It is through you that I have been able to move beyond the red-hot reaction to the name "custer" to a much more pragmatic view. Indeed, I hope you pick up the blog this year.

Thank you, Bee. It's taken me a lot of years to get to this point. Studying the LBH debacle again has only brought my ambivalence right back to the surface.
 
Most of what I have read regarding Custer has been post-ACW. I think that Custer had a lot of similarities with Stonewall Jackson regarding his interactions with subordinates. Also both were fairly eccentric and selfish (in different kinds of ways; Jackson was much more introspective whereas Custer was more flamboyant.) A lot of disregard for their troops. Matter of fact Custer was court-martialed because of it (and being AWOL) and was suspended for a year (1867-8), before Sheridan restored him. For some weird reason, this does not come up in the general memories regarding Custer. Another thing that is in general missing from recollections, was the fit he threw when the Department of War asked him to resign his commission, instead of taking a leave of absence as he requested, when he wanted to command Benito Juarez' army against Maximillian in Mexico, as a soldier of fortune in 1866.

Custer was all about Custer, really...
 
Thank you, Bee. It's taken me a lot of years to get to this point. Studying the LBH debacle again has only brought my ambivalence right back to the surface.

I hope that you may write about what you are experiencing at some time; it helps the rest of us who are much less disciplined about such things. Even as I read and write on this thread, I have to still give myself time-outs to gather my thoughts.
 
I hope that you may write about what you are experiencing at some time; it helps the rest of us who are much less disciplined about such things. Even as I read and write on this thread, I have to still give myself time-outs to gather my thoughts.

I'm sure that I will. I have to grapple with the x's and o's first, and that's where I think it will really rear its ugly head.
 
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Most of what I have read regarding Custer has been post-ACW. I think that Custer had a lot of similarities with Stonewall Jackson regarding his interactions with subordinates. Also both were fairly eccentric and selfish (in different kinds of ways; Jackson was much more introspective whereas Custer was more flamboyant.) A lot of disregard for their troops. Matter of fact Custer was court-martialed because of it (and being AWOL) and was suspended for a year (1867-8), before Sheridan restored him. For some weird reason, this does not come up in the general memories regarding Custer. Another thing that is in general missing from recollections, was the fit he threw when the Department of War asked him to resign his commission, instead of taking a leave of absence as he requested, when he wanted to command Benito Juarez' army against Maximillian in Mexico, as a soldier of fortune in 1866.

Custer was all about Custer, really...

Soldier of fortune overthrowing Maximillian? :D He might have bumped into Forrest trying to do the same thing to set up a new Confederacy!
 
Most Custer scholars now realize that the Hollywood portrayal of Custer as reckless and irresponsible is simply unwarranted. The last several major books on Custer--such as James Donovan's, Nathan Philbrick's, Bruce Liddic's, and T. J. Stiles' works--all defend Custer and raise serious questions about the actions of his two ranking subordinates: Reno and Benteen.

Here is my Custer web page:

http://miketgriffith.com/files/custer.pdf

Here is my article on Custer's Last Stand:

http://www.miketgriffith.com/files/custerrecord.htm

I regard Custer as a hero, both during the Civil War and during the Indian fighting.
 
So Custer kills innocent Indian women an children and is a hero, Forrest fights in defense of slavery and is a villain. And people wonder why we southerners defend our confederate heritage, look at the double standard, the US policy toward native peoples was ethnic cleansing.
 
...

I regard Custer as a hero, both during the Civil War and during the Indian fighting.

I'll probably regret asking, but I really do wonder why you consider Custer a hero "during the Indian fighting." While it's not my opinion, I can see how he might be seen as a hero during the war, but after the war ? What, exactly, did he do to be considered a hero regarding Indians ? I'm not going to argue with you; just want to see what it is that you consider heroic about Custer's fights with the natives.
 
So Custer kills innocent Indian women an children and is a hero, Forrest fights in defense of slavery and is a villain. And people wonder why we southerners defend our confederate heritage, look at the double standard, the US policy toward native peoples was ethnic cleansing.

I used to agree with 90% of what you say here. In fact, I used to regard Custer as a war criminal and a reckless commander whose arrogance and rashness got his battalion killed. But my reading over the last couple years has caused me to change my mind.

I do agree that Forrest has been the victim of a double-standard, but I am concerned that he might have committed war crimes at Fort Pillow. I don't know. I've read a fair amount about Fort Pillow, and I'm not sure what to think.
 
I am not sure "hero" is the right term for Custer's service in the west. He was in the service of the U.S. Army, and was doing as ordered, more or less.
 
As a Lieutenant Colonel Custer would have not set much policy, but mostly followed policy. Custer would be allowed a fair amount of discretion on how he implemented the policies established by his superiors. So my question is, did the action he took follow his orders or at least the spirit of the orders given him.
 
Hero or Goat? The case can be made he was both. Custer was known by his fellow cadets at the U.S. Military Academy as the "dare-devil of the class" He devoted more energy to pranks than to his academic studies. Custer’s voluminous record of demerits is the largest number ever accumulated by a cadet in the history of West Point. He barely managed to graduate from West Point in 1861 as the lowest-ranking cadet---ranked 34th of 34 cadets.
Although Custer struggled in the classroom, he excelled on the battlefield. After joining the Army of the Potomac’s cavalry following his graduation, he gained notice for his daring cavalry charges, bold leadership style and tactical brilliance. In June 1863, Custer was promoted to the rank of brigadier general at the age of 23, the Union army's youngest general. He solidified his reputation as the "Boy General" days later at the Battle of Gettysburg when he repelled a pivotal Confederate assault led by J.E.B. Stuart. By the end of the Civil War, Custer had risen to a higher rank (major general) than any of his West Point classmates.
 
By the end of the Civil War, Custer had risen to a higher rank (major general) than any of his West Point classmates.

Temporary rank in Volunteer Army--> he reverted back to Captain after the war, when the U.S. 7th Cavalry Regiment was created at Fort Riley Kansas, Custer was promoted to the position of Lt. Colonel of the regiment.
 
Here is Terry`s order(s) to Custer

Headquarters of the Department of Dakota (In the Field)
Camp at Mouth of Rosebud River, Montana Territory June 22nd, 1876

Lieutenant-Colonel Custer,
7th Calvary

Colonel: The Brigadier-General Commanding directs that, as soon as your regiment can be made ready for the march, you will proceed up the Rosebud in pursuit of the Indians whose trail was discovered by Major Reno a few days since. It is, impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and were it not impossible to do so the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy. He will, however, indicate to you his own views of what your action should be, and he desires that you should conform to them unless you shall see sufficient reason for departing from them. He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn toward the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank.

The column of Colonel Gibbon is now in motion for the mouth of the Big Horn. As soon as it reaches that point will cross the Yellowstone and move up at least as far as the forks of the Big and Little Horns. Of course its future movements must be controlled by circumstances as they arise, but it is hoped that the Indians, if upon the Little Horn, may be so nearly inclosed by the two columns that their escape will be impossible. The Department Commander desires that on your way up the Rosebud you should thoroughly examine the upper part of Tullock's Creek, and that you should endeavor to send a scout through to Colonel Gibbon's command.

The supply-steamer will be pushed up the Big Horn as far as the forks of the river is found to be navigable for that distance, and the Department Commander, who will accompany the column of Colonel Gibbon, desires you to report to him there not later than the expiration of the time for which your troops are rationed, unless in the mean time you receive further orders.

Very respectfully, Your obedient servant,
E. W. Smith, Captain, 18th Infantry A. A. J. G.
 
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