tlyne
Private
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2016
- Location
- Cambridge, OH
Like the red baron reference.How long are people going to accept the tired old 'copse of trees' tale. Why, even tour guides have a real problem with THAT- that is, if they are familiar with Gettysburg circa 1863!!
The truth is, that that purported copse of trees were mere saplings at the time of battle- and NOBODY can deny that. Across at near a mile, and over a great swale, that 'copse' could scarcely be seen. And commanding more than 20-30,000 troops, in the smoke and confusion, you are gonna focus on less than an acre wooded swatch??!!
The goal of the attack was there then- but not now- Zieglers Grove. THAT- or at least the right extreme of it- was the goal of the Pickett-Pettigrew attack.If the battlefield existed as it did at time of battle, you would see the true aim of battle. In addition, you would see the genius of Lee's plan- to split the Union center, and render the broken halves inable to mutually assist each other, and require a most-disorderable retreat.
But no, we are led to believe the 'copse of trees' myth, that at the end of the funnel were pumped hundreds of troops who 'held the line'- what a load!!
Walk the ground, as I have, and you will see the unenable position that the 'copse of trees' fools continue to hold. From an early age, I was told that "sayin dont make it so". Unfortunately, the older the lies, the easier they are accepted.
PS. My great uncle shot down 'The Red Baron"...that doesnt make me a pilot.
20th Massachusetts
Paul Revere is an ancestor of mine. My Great Uncle was named Paul Revere Lyne. He was the football coach at Rio Grande College (Ohio), he later became the President of the school.
How long are people going to accept the tired old 'copse of trees' tale. Why, even tour guides have a real problem with THAT- that is, if they are familiar with Gettysburg circa 1863!!
The truth is, that that purported copse of trees were mere saplings at the time of battle- and NOBODY can deny that. Across at near a mile, and over a great swale, that 'copse' could scarcely be seen. And commanding more than 20-30,000 troops, in the smoke and confusion, you are gonna focus on less than an acre wooded swatch??!!
The goal of the attack was there then- but not now- Zieglers Grove. THAT- or at least the right extreme of it- was the goal of the Pickett-Pettigrew attack.If the battlefield existed as it did at time of battle, you would see the true aim of battle. In addition, you would see the genius of Lee's plan- to split the Union center, and render the broken halves inable to mutually assist each other, and require a most-disorderable retreat.
But no, we are led to believe the 'copse of trees' myth, that at the end of the funnel were pumped hundreds of troops who 'held the line'- what a load!!
Walk the ground, as I have, and you will see the unenable position that the 'copse of trees' fools continue to hold. From an early age, I was told that "sayin dont make it so". Unfortunately, the older the lies, the easier they are accepted.
The goal of the attack was there then- but not now- Zieglers Grove. .
20th Massachusetts
Maybe for part of the Carolinians (or the left of the Confederate line that actually ended a bit South of the Federal line/Ziegler's grove.) But there are zero contemporary Confederate references to support that, and the Left of the line (Brockenbrough) kinda went half way there and back.
All (but one) contemporary primary Confederate references say that the target was "the enemy line". Just makes too much sense that it will not be a landmark, esp. since all those landmarks were about invisible. The Right line of the Confederates was just North of Sherfy's; a pretty unfortunate arrangement if you target Ziegler's grove
Despite all the stories, there is some actual data about Pickett's charge: Federal recipients of the Medal of Honor for capturing particular flags. I am not going to get into the whole data, but some of it is fascinating. For example, the flag of the 18th VA (Garnett's brigade) that was the seventh from the right regiment and legend has it that it went across to the North of the Codori farm, with those obliques (another fun suburban legend,) had its flag captured by someone from 1st MN. Contemporary testimonies by a couple 1st MN soldiers say that they stayed were they were the day before (i.e. right where their monument is.) Unless you believe in teleportation or some magic converging rush of anyone towards the CoT, you got to believe in a pretty much parallel to Emmitsburg Rd single line Kemper-Garnet-Fry-Marshal-Davis attack, attacking from Ziegler's Grove to the S of the PA monument...
I actually found several references from Confederate officers about making left obliques during the advance (Colonel Joseph Mayo, Captain John Smith of the 11th Virginia, and Captain Henry Owen of the 18th Virginia).
As for the 1st Minnesota, contemporary evidence indicates that they moved by the right flank as the Confederates approached the Angle, firing as they moved. Evidence suggests that they were one of the units that counterattacked against Armistead's breakthrough. Garnett's flags were almost certainly captured somewhere along the wall between the Angle and the copse.
R
Contemporary is the operating word for references. I know the references regarding the obliques, but those are not contemporary. The only account I know from Mayo, for example is second hand and from 1906. Owen's papers were published in the 20th century as well, and here are their contents. His Gettysburg manuscripts are from 1881, thus not contemporary (plus I'd throw out everything after 1879 because they are tainted by the Bachelder Fantasy.) And his account is bizarre: He (like several Federal, but not Confederate, accounts) says that the attack was in column and not line formation... John Holmes Smith's account is also 20th Century (1904)
As far as 1st MN goes, I know of 2 contemporary sources (letter and diary) saying that they did not move. Might need to dig them.
I am just looking at the whole thing based on evidence, weighing the closest to 1863 more than others and throwing away anything published after the Bachelder papers were published, including their content (which is not that much about Pickett's Charge from the Confederate point of view.)
There is also Col. Hall's map that shows the oblique movement.
Hall's map only deals with what the man saw. Just a witness putting down what he saw on that day with nothing to gain or loose either way.IMO, even if there were no orders to left oblique (the evidence for both the pro and con positions is shaky, IMHO), there is evidence that some of the movements resulted in a practical oblique. For example, several accounts talk about forming to the left which would appear and move similarly to an oblique.
R
Hall's map only deals with what the man saw. Just a witness putting down what he saw on that day with nothing to gain or loose either way.
And you are gonna put your faith in an artist's redition?Forbes painting of Pickett's Charge. CoT not center background. Perhaps Forbes didnt get the memo.
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