Lee What Was It About D. H. Hill That Bothered Lee So Much?

JeffBrooks

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Hutto, TX
D. H. Hill famously could not get along with the two army commanders under whom he served: Lee and Bragg. I know the details as to why he could not get along with Bragg (which seemed to be the same reasons other generals could not, only more so), but I am not familiar with the sources of his personal conflict with Lee. I admittedly have not ever studied the question in any detail, but the few snippets I see on general sources are not specific. I assume that the conflict had to be serious, as Lee was famously able to get along with nearly everybody he encountered.

So, what was it? Anybody know?
 
D. H. Hill famously could not get along with the two army commanders under whom he served: Lee and Bragg. I know the details as to why he could not get along with Bragg (which seemed to be the same reasons other generals could not, only more so), but I am not familiar with the sources of his personal conflict with Lee. I admittedly have not ever studied the question in any detail, but the few snippets I see on general sources are not specific. I assume that the conflict had to be serious, as Lee was famously able to get along with nearly everybody he encountered.

So, what was it? Anybody know?
Hill was well known as being quite outspoken and harsh to his fellow officers. He was said to have blamed Lee for the defeat at Malvern Hill and would not take responsibility for the loss of Special Order No. 191 which contained Lee's plans for the Maryland Campaign. This lead to a quarrel between the two that turned into a dislike.

Considering Lee's ability to deal with a lot of "personalities" In the Army of Northern Virginia this must have been some kind of disagreement and quite a dislike.
 
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It does seem rooted in the Maryland campaign and the final straw was Boteler's Ford. It turned out to be a relatively minor engagement but it started out much larger, with D H Hill apparently losing almost 30 guns. He hadn't but it showed the confusion that abounded. There was a miscommunication with Jackson and Lee, according to Hill, was confused about what happened and what to do about it. Both he and Sandy Pendleton gave very different accounts than Lee did - later, of course - and it seemed as if Lee might have pumped himself up at Hill's expense. If so, that would be the first and only time he did something like that! After Boteler's Ford, though, Lee shelved D H Hill and did not recommend him for further promotion. Malvern Hill, losing the orders and a couple other things made Lee decide this was best for the cranky officer. The loss of Lee's order, one so critical Longstreet actually ate his! - was something D H Hill denied the rest of his life. He would show people his copy of the order and ask how it could have been lost when he held it right here in his hand? It was Stonewall Jackson's copy that was lost - he thought Hill hadn't gotten one but when the courier saw the general did have that order he just didn't give the second one to him. Instead of using it to light one of his cigars he used it to wrap them up and the rest...is history!
 
D.H. Hill's problem was that he was a disruptive influence. He did not suffer fools gladly, he did not suffer them at all, and if he thought somebody was being a damned fool he told them so bluntly to their face. He didn't care about seniority when he did this, he didn't care about other people feeling when he did this, he was free and open with his criticism when he felt it valid.

It's entirely understandable how such a fearlessly outspoken person would be undesireable to a commanding officer. That person would either have to taken very firmly in hand and controlled or else they would sow discord throughout the army. I'm not sure Lee was prepared fight with Hill and bring him to heel so he probably thought it better just to be rid of him.
 
I am curious as to what it was about Hill that caused Lee to send him out of the army when he clearly liked and supported Jubal Early, who had the same personality traits.
 
It was Jefferson Davis who sent D H Hill out of the army completely. Lee only shuffled him off to somebody else. That person was Bragg, who needed Hill like he needed another ulcer. Hill was neck deep in the AoT's intrigue, and his attitude at Chickamauga was very bad - sulking in his tent and all. He probably wasn't the officer who needed to be fired, though!
 
I think that the cherry on top the Lee-Hill relationship was the fact that Lee's special order 191 (the one intercepted by McClellant) was believed by many including Lee to be Hill's copy. After that, Lee wanted nothing to do with Hill...

re: Bragg: Hill was not his only subordinate openly against him after Chickamauga. Davis is the one who decided for Bragg and against Hill at that point.
 
D. H. Hill famously could not get along with the two army commanders under whom he served: Lee and Bragg. I know the details as to why he could not get along with Bragg (which seemed to be the same reasons other generals could not, only more so), but I am not familiar with the sources of his personal conflict with Lee. I admittedly have not ever studied the question in any detail, but the few snippets I see on general sources are not specific. I assume that the conflict had to be serious, as Lee was famously able to get along with nearly everybody he encountered.

So, what was it? Anybody know?

Better insight into the relationship D. H. Hill had with other officers, including General Lee, can be gleaned from "Lee's Maverick General - Daniel Harvey Hill" by Hal Bridges.
 
Better insight into the relationship D. H. Hill had with other officers, including General Lee, can be gleaned from "Lee's Maverick General - Daniel Harvey Hill" by Hal Bridges.

That is a very biased book, IMO. The authors went in with an agenda, and tried to find supportive evidence...
 
D. H. Hill famously could not get along with the two army commanders under whom he served: Lee and Bragg. I know the details as to why he could not get along with Bragg (which seemed to be the same reasons other generals could not, only more so), but I am not familiar with the sources of his personal conflict with Lee. I admittedly have not ever studied the question in any detail, but the few snippets I see on general sources are not specific. I assume that the conflict had to be serious, as Lee was famously able to get along with nearly everybody he encountered.

So, what was it? Anybody know?

DH Hill actually submitted his letter of resignation to Jackson on January 1, 1863 because of "health" problems. Lee actually suggested that he be sent to North Carolina to help with an emerging problem there. Lee was willing " to detach him from this army" to help "inspirit or encourage" his fellow Carolinians. Lee had suggested to Davis regarding Hill was an excellent division commander, but no more than that; he did not have the ability to act on his own that higher rank demanded. Hill was very unhappy and felt that he had been passed over promotion by less qualified individuals such as Pemberton. Jackson on the other hand was a proponent of DH Hill and held his ability as a commander in high regard. Hill was persuaded to remain in the service. Hill asked for a subordinate position under GW Smith. But Smith and Richmond did not get along so he resigned his commission. Hill assumed command of N Carolina troops at Goldsboro in February. In "Lee's Maverick General...Daniel Harvey Hill" by Hal Bridges there is a 33 page chapter in the book entitled "At Odds with Lee". Chapter IX of the book is entitled "Dissention In The High Command" regarding the relationship between Lee and Hill. Is is very informative regarding the situation.
 
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To bring it into a modern context, nobody wants a guy like Hill on his/her staff. He was not a team player. No matter how good he was, one doesn't want that guy on your team. He was fractious and otherwise not nice. Nevermind that he spoke the truth; on a team, it is ill-advised.

Diplomacy was not his forte.
 
DH Hill actually submitted his letter of resignation to Jackson on January 1, 1863 because of "health" problems. Lee actually suggested that he be sent to North Carolina to help with an emerging problem there. Lee was willing " to detach him from this army" to help "inspirit or encourage" his fellow Carolinians. Lee had suggested to Davis regarding Hill was an excellent division commander, but no more than that; he did not have the ability to act on his own that higher rank demanded. Hill was very unhappy and felt that he had been passed over promotion by less qualified individuals such as Pemberton. Jackson on the other hand was a proponent of DH Hill and held his ability as a commander in high regard. Hill was persuaded to remain in the service. Hill asked for a subordinate position under GW Smith. But Smith and Richmond did not get along so he resigned his commission. Hill assumed command of N Carolina troops at Goldsboro in February. In "Lee's Maverick General...Daniel Harvey Hill" by Hal Bridges there is a 33 page chapter in the book entitled "At Odds with Lee". Chapter IX of the book is entitled "Dissention In The High Command" regarding the relationship between Lee and Hill. Is is very informative regarding the situation.
Sounds like a good read. D.H. Hill and Richard Taylor both strike me as interesting fellows who were under utilized but for different reasons. IMO they would have made a great team in the AoT. Throw in Forrest and watch the sparks fly.
 
Sounds like a good read. D.H. Hill and Richard Taylor both strike me as interesting fellows who were under utilized but for different reasons. IMO they would have made a great team in the AoT. Throw in Forrest and watch the sparks fly.

D H Hill liked Forrest! At Chickamauga he was so impressed with him he asked to see him. When Forrest rode up, Hill took off his hat and said, "Gen Forrest, I wish to congratulate you and these brave men moving across that field like veteran infantry upon their magnificent behavior. In Virginia I made myself extremely unpopular with the cavalry because I said that, so far, I had not seen a dead man with spurs on. No one can speak disparagingly of such troops as yours." Strange to say, Forrest might have been one of about three people who could get along with Hill!
 
D H Hill liked Forrest! At Chickamauga he was so impressed with him he asked to see him. When Forrest rode up, Hill took off his hat and said, "Gen Forrest, I wish to congratulate you and these brave men moving across that field like veteran infantry upon their magnificent behavior. In Virginia I made myself extremely unpopular with the cavalry because I said that, so far, I had not seen a dead man with spurs on. No one can speak disparagingly of such troops as yours." Strange to say, Forrest might have been one of about three people who could get along with Hill!
I know, When I said watch the sparks fly I meant that in a good way. Taylor in charge with Hill and Forrest would have been a very hard team to go up against. I've got Taylor in charge because he had the political skills and training that the other two lacked.
 
D. H. Hill famously could not get along with the two army commanders under whom he served: Lee and Bragg. I know the details as to why he could not get along with Bragg (which seemed to be the same reasons other generals could not, only more so), but I am not familiar with the sources of his personal conflict with Lee. I admittedly have not ever studied the question in any detail, but the few snippets I see on general sources are not specific. I assume that the conflict had to be serious, as Lee was famously able to get along with nearly everybody he encountered.

So, what was it? Anybody know?

In passing, D. H. Hill had served as a Lieutenant under then-Captain Braxton Bragg down in Mexico. In 1863, Hill writes a letter to Bragg when he is assigned to his Army. He appears to be happy to be reunited with his old commander. The enthusiasm did not last long.

Added Later:
The other two Lieutenants in Bragg's Battery in Mexico were George Thomas and John Reynolds. Pretty impressive group!
 
Was it because Hill had criticised Lee about the Confederate losses at Malvern Hill and also for the LOSS of the famous 'Lee's lost order' (Special Order No 191 ) containing the Antietam Battle Plan.
 
Strange to say, Forrest might have been one of about three people who could get along with Hill!
I am actually a bit of a DH Hill fan, although admittedly, it may be a fan club of only one. :giggle:
Maybe there were a few more who seemed to be able to tolerate DH Hill? Besides Jackson and Forrest that is. :bounce:Incidentally, who was your third? :giggle:

“High and well deserved reputation as a hard fighter…seemed to go from choice into the most dangerous place he could find on the field.” ~ John Haskell
John Haskell of SC usually critical of many southern officers. John Haskell, The Haskell Memoirs: The Personal Narrative of a Confederate Officer, ed. By Gilbert E. Govan and James Livinggood (New York, 1960) p40

“never a more plucky or determined fighter.” ~ James Longstreet
Longstreet describing DH Hill; Mason, Jack C. Until Antietam The Life and Letters of Major General Israel B. Richardson, U.S. Army. Carbondale IL: Southern Illinois Press, 2009 pg 186

“he was a skillfull officer, intelligent and keen eyed, stern to rebuke violation of orders and lack of discipline-a determined fighter-as the boys expressed it, “A fighter from way back” ~ William Alexander Smith of 14th NC Inf. William Alexander Smith, The Anson Guards: Company C… (1914; reprint,Wendell NC, 1978),p. 120

“…was a capable, well read soldier, and positively about the bravest man ever seen. He seemed not to know peril and was utterly indifferent to bullets and shell,….” ~ Moxley Sorrrel
Sorrell, G. Moxley. Recollections of a Confederate Staff Officer. New York: Bantam edition, 1992. Pg 37

Quotes from here https://jarosebrock.wordpress.com/c...rt-e-lee/thomas-j-jackson/daniel-harvey-hill/
 
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