Video Discussion 18: Confederate Guerillas, Union Reprisal

Patrick, you haven't missed the chat; it's tomorrow night!

Boonslick, it would be wonderful to have you join the discussion and give us your additional info about guerrillas in Missouri (a topic I don't know a lot about). It will be 9 pm Monday your time (CST).

Looking forward to tomorrow night!
 
He didn't say anything new to those of us out here in Missouri that we didn't already know. Also, from knowledge gained from the many posts on CW Talk, many members know a considerable amount of information on this subject and could, if so inclined, give a comparable and perhaps a more passionate presentation.
Boonslick has a good insight here. (When you know Boonslick, you come to expect good insights from him). There really wasn't any new content in this talk, but it was interesting, nonetheless. I was somewhat surprised when the author said most people outside of Kansas and Missouri have never heard of Gen. Ewing's General Order Number 11. Or maybe I should say the depopulation of 3.5 - 4 counties in western Missouri.
 
Video watched and notes taken. Hope to be there tomorrow night.
 
transcript:

Nov 30, 2015 9:53 PM - Pat Young: anyone here?
Nov 30, 2015 9:56 PM - JerseyBart: Hi pat and r. Alex.
Nov 30, 2015 9:57 PM - R. Alex Raines: Hey JB and Pat
Nov 30, 2015 9:57 PM - bdtex: Hello all
Nov 30, 2015 9:57 PM - Pat Young: Hello
Nov 30, 2015 9:57 PM - MaryDee: I'm here! Hi, Pat, JB, Alex!
Nov 30, 2015 9:57 PM - MaryDee: And Tex!
Nov 30, 2015 9:58 PM - R. Alex Raines: Hey JB, do you watch these before selecting them, or after?
Nov 30, 2015 9:58 PM - MaryDee: I had to watch the video 1 1/2 times because I fell asleep in the middle of it the first time!
Nov 30, 2015 9:59 PM - JerseyBart: After
Nov 30, 2015 9:59 PM - bdtex: Let's roll
Nov 30, 2015 10:00 PM - MaryDee: This is not a topic I'm "up" on, so will mostly be "listening." I want to hear more about Missouri!
Nov 30, 2015 10:00 PM - R. Alex Raines: I ask because this weeks episode focused on process
Nov 30, 2015 10:00 PM - War Horse: Hello everyone
Nov 30, 2015 10:00 PM - R. Alex Raines: After what, 15 minutes of introductions
Nov 30, 2015 10:01 PM - Pat Young: I see the video is only two weeks old. Good catch.
Nov 30, 2015 10:01 PM - bdtex: Yo WH
Nov 30, 2015 10:01 PM - JerseyBart: I think what I took from the video that when in enemy country, if a guerrilla takes a shot at you, everything around becomes suspiciously deadly
Nov 30, 2015 10:01 PM - chellers: Hi all.
Nov 30, 2015 10:02 PM - JerseyBart: And has to be treated as such, popular or not with the locals
Nov 30, 2015 10:02 PM - bdtex: I fast forward thru the intro
Nov 30, 2015 10:02 PM - Pat Young: Me too
Nov 30, 2015 10:02 PM - Pat Young: I have been slowly working my wat through the four volumes of Guerrilla Warfare in Civil War Missouri by Bruce Nichols so this video was of particular interest to me.
Nov 30, 2015 10:03 PM - War Horse: What I got from the video was the suffering of the Negro was just beginning
Nov 30, 2015 10:03 PM - JerseyBart: And that if the locals won't handle it, the locals will be dealt with too
Nov 30, 2015 10:03 PM - R. Alex Raines: Anyone else here read Sutherland's a savage conflict? Part of my recent absence was spent reading Sutherland.
Nov 30, 2015 10:03 PM - Pat Young: The LieberCode pretty much removed guerrillas from almost all protections
Nov 30, 2015 10:04 PM - R. Alex Raines: International law these days isn't much distant from Lieberman
Nov 30, 2015 10:04 PM - R. Alex Raines: Liber, is it? Stupid autocorrect
Nov 30, 2015 10:04 PM - Pat Young: Lieber
Nov 30, 2015 10:05 PM - bdtex: The thing I got the most from it is that it wasn't a coincidence that Sherman,Sheridan and Grant etc. started out in the western theater where the worst of the guerrilla warfare started. The eastern theater got the worst of the reprisal.
Nov 30, 2015 10:05 PM - R. Alex Raines: I know how to spell it but am done trying to convince my iPad of that fact
Nov 30, 2015 10:05 PM - Pat Young: lol
Nov 30, 2015 10:06 PM - R. Alex Raines: Let's face it - South Carolina was owed a Sherman
Nov 30, 2015 10:06 PM - JerseyBart: Good point Alex.
Nov 30, 2015 10:07 PM - War Horse: What was the name of the guerrilla confederate backed actions that were later discontinued by the confederates? Clearly the punitive retaliation proved to be to high a price to pay leading to it being abandoned by the conferates.
Nov 30, 2015 10:07 PM - JerseyBart: You start the war, you eat the consequences
Nov 30, 2015 10:07 PM - R. Alex Raines: Doesn't international law pretty much shun recognition of partisans and other sorts of bushwhacking
Nov 30, 2015 10:08 PM - Pat Young: It is considered a shortcoming of the Lieber Code by modern jurists
Nov 30, 2015 10:08 PM - bdtex: Dunno WH
Nov 30, 2015 10:08 PM - War Horse: It doesn't help when you start the war and the majority of it is fought on your own ground.
Nov 30, 2015 10:08 PM - R. Alex Raines: Because of the obvious problem of what it does. By that I mean it slowly leads to atrocity.
Nov 30, 2015 10:08 PM - JerseyBart: It stayed where it layed.
Nov 30, 2015 10:09 PM - Pat Young: The South had partisan rangers who were covered by Lieber and guerrillas, who were not.
Nov 30, 2015 10:10 PM - R. Alex Raines: Ok, Pat, what I'm saying is, what distinction for a guerilla does modern law provide that LCode did not?
Nov 30, 2015 10:10 PM - Pat Young: That could take days to discuss.
Nov 30, 2015 10:11 PM - Pat Young: So what did folks think of the video?
Nov 30, 2015 10:11 PM - bdtex: Kinda surprised that there was no mention of Butler in New Orleans. I'm guessing there was an increase in guerrilla attacks in the Trans-Mississippi from that.
Nov 30, 2015 10:11 PM - chellers: He spent a bit too much time talking about how he came to write the book.
Nov 30, 2015 10:11 PM - JerseyBart: Did civilians try to police the guerrillas at all?
 
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:11 PM - R. Alex Raines: I thought it was interesting, but more in terms of the process of writing than in terms of the content.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:12 PM - MaryDee: Iagree--I'd rather have had more about guerillas and less about writing the book!
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:12 PM - bdtex: Agree
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:12 PM - chellers: Yes, MaryDee
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:12 PM - War Horse: I liked it very much. It shed light on a subject that is not covered by many historians unless you are looking for the subject.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:13 PM - Pat Young: It is really only in the last ten years that a lot of historians have begun writing on the guerrilla war
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:13 PM - JerseyBart: Headquarters in the Brush is a book about scout-type soldiers that I've had forever but haven't read yet.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:14 PM - Pat Young: that is seen as a response to the difficulties of dealing with the insurgencies in Iraq.Afghanistan
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:14 PM - bdtex: Other stuff of note. He said only 2 guerrilla units that were officially "sanctioned" by the Confederate government.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:14 PM - War Horse: Were the provost guard considered Guerrilla's?
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:14 PM - Pat Young: No
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:15 PM - bdtex: He said home guards sometimes participated in guerrilla activities.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:15 PM - Pat Young: Guerrillas were distinguished by not being part of the regular chain of command
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:15 PM - War Horse: bdtex I found that odd also. Why disband all but two?.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:16 PM - JerseyBart: Guerrilla made life difficult for the enemy and their own side's population.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:16 PM - bdtex: Don't think they disbanded. Think they were always on their own.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:17 PM - War Horse: Able men not fighting in the regular army. Seems they could have been used else where.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:17 PM - bdtex: Got no help from the CSA government
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:17 PM - MaryDee: The lecturer stated that the Confederate govnt couldn't control the "partisan rangers" which is why they repealed the partisan ranger act. Only Mosby and some guy named McNeil were under control. (I've read plenty about Mosby but not the other guy).
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:18 PM - War Horse: That's what it was called Partisan Ranger Act. Thanks MaryDee
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:18 PM - chellers: What's the difference between partisan rangers and guerillas?
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:18 PM - bdtex: Yep. Made no notes about that because I was totally unfamiliar with it
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:19 PM - Pat Young: Partisan rangers were recognized as lawful combatants, guerrillas were not
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:19 PM - JerseyBart: The confederate govt., by action and attitude, created those rangers. That they could not control most of them is poetic justice.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:19 PM - Pat Young: Many guerrillas claimed to be rangers
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:19 PM - War Horse: Not sure really. I think the video gave enough information to wet our appetite.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:20 PM - Pat Young: Union troops would demand documentation to prove that they were authorized
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:20 PM - bdtex: Kinda hard to communicate with them due to their clandestine nature
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:21 PM - War Horse: Once retaliation started you would think most guerrilla's would have been very selective in their actions. No one wants to see mom homeless.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:22 PM - MaryDee: About Missouri==I've read about Quantrill, Bloody Bill, etc., but don't remember reading about General Order #11 and the depopulation of western Missouri.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:22 PM - chellers: So partisan rangers were semi-officially recognized but allowed to do as they pleased?
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:22 PM - Pat Young: The retaliation helped spark recruiting for the guerrillas because pro-southern whites saw that the Union troops were abusing civilians
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:22 PM - JerseyBart: Guerillas seem to be fringe thinkers, wingers. They may not have cared what happened to,mom if they thought it supported the cause.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:23 PM - MaryDee: I believe the hope was that the guerillas would act in concert with the confederate forces, but since they weren't under military discipline, that was a futile hope
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:23 PM - bdtex: Sherman and Sheridan style retaliation became war-ending strategy. It couldn't be stopped.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:24 PM - MaryDee: Presumably that's why the act was repealed?
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:26 PM - MaryDee: Weren't there also Union bushwhackers in Missouri and Kansas?
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:26 PM - War Horse: Agreed what good is a guerilla unit that could not be directed. More of a hindrance than anything else.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:27 PM - Pat Young: Kansas Jayhawkers came down to Missouri fairly often.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:27 PM - Pat Young: Even pro-Union men saw them as a problem
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:27 PM - JerseyBart: Cannot be directed, found and put civilians in danger.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:28 PM - War Horse: Agreed JB, an additional problem the CS goverment did not need.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:29 PM - JerseyBart: This very much turns anything Sherman is accused of and/or did back around on a confederacy that could not, did not control their people.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:30 PM - MaryDee: My reading is that what Sherman and Sheridan did was a deliberate tactic to bring the war home to the civilians who supported it rather than retaliation for guerilla raids. Perhaps a mizture of both?
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:31 PM - War Horse: Sherman and Sheridan were no longer retaliating for guerilla activity. They took the war to the people of the south. It started off as retaliation but became a strategy not need action to be acted on.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:32 PM - MaryDee: From what I've read of Lee's invasion in the Gettysburg campaign, the Pennsylvanians weren't doing much attacking but they did a lot of giving bad directions when asked!
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:32 PM - War Horse: dido MaryDee
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:32 PM - bdtex: The speaker pointed out the idea of conciliation actually started to erode in 1862-early 1863 and reprisal took it's place. Both sides escalated their conduct afterwards.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:33 PM - MaryDee: The Pennsylvanians also did the best they could to hide their horses and livestock. So they were resisting even if not fighting.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:33 PM - bdtex: The speaker also acknowledged that there were other factors involved in Union scorched earth warfare.
 
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:33 PM - War Horse: That's true let's not forget Chamberburg. I don't think you'll find anything named after Early there.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:34 PM - MaryDee: For sure, not! I've read a couple of diaries about events there in both 1863 and 1864.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:35 PM - JerseyBart: Mary...there was some militia that fired potshots at the confederates around Gettysburg, but we're scared off and some captured.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:36 PM - War Horse: Had the war have been conducted more on northern soil I'm sure the same would have happened there.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:36 PM - MaryDee: The Confederates were asking for large monetary payments and burning the buildings when the owners couldn't or wouldn't pay. One diary I read says that the women living in the house (actually soldiers' wives, but they didn't say that) said they were widows, and so their home was spared.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:37 PM - JerseyBart: Same thing goes for the militia. They may not have been a real threat, but if I'm a confederate being fired at, I'm going to treat them as a threat.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:37 PM - bdtex: Gotta bug out early tonight. I'll catch the rest from the transcript. Enjoyed it y'all.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:37 PM - War Horse: Goodnight bdtex
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:37 PM - MaryDee: JB, the militia were troops, not irregular/guerilla forces. Of course they were pretty green and therefore not well disciplined.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:37 PM - MaryDee: Good night, bdtex!
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:38 PM - chellers: Hope to see ya next week bdtex.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:39 PM - JerseyBart: Mary...invalid Corp too I believe, not much of a threat, but if you're shooting at me, I'm firing back.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:39 PM - JerseyBart: Good night bd.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:39 PM - War Horse: Gotta run also. Great discussion everyone. Good Night
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:40 PM - Pat Young: There was an ethnic component in guerrilla war in Missouri
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:40 PM - chellers: Good night, WH.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:40 PM - Pat Young: German settlements were particular targets
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:41 PM - JerseyBart: Good night warhorse
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:41 PM - MaryDee: Goodnight,WH!
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:42 PM - MaryDee: Weren't the Missouri Germans Union supporters?
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:42 PM - chellers: So the guerillas were also nationalists?
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:42 PM - Pat Young: yes that was a reason for targetting them
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:43 PM - MaryDee: I need to read up on this General Order #11. I somehow missed the depopulation of western Missouri!
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:44 PM - Pat Young: General Order 11 is very legally problematic
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:45 PM - JerseyBart: I'm calling it a night too. Thanks for joining me everyone. See you next week.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:45 PM - Pat Young: take care. I am heading to bed
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:45 PM - MaryDee: The lecturer said it was retaliation for Quantrill's raid on Lawrence, Kansas.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:45 PM - chellers: Thanks for hosting, JB. Good night all.
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:46 PM - Pat Young: Yes, but it was directed against the general civilian population
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:46 PM - Pat Young: without provision for their survival
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:46 PM - MaryDee: Good night, Pat, JB, Chellers!
Nov 30, 2015 at 10:46 PM - Pat Young: night
 
Looks like we were all feeling the effects of the 4 day weekend. We petered out about 15 minutes before quitting time.:sleep:
 
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