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The Confederate flag still bears weight

Discussion in 'Campfire Chat - General Discussions' started by unionblue, Apr 26, 2013.

  1. unionblue

    unionblue Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    To All,

    An article from the Student Newspaper, Old Gold & Black, Wake Forest University, dated April 18, 2013. Please note the comments section.

    The Confederate flag still bears weight.

    http://oldgoldandblack.com/?p=31560&cpage

    Unionblue
    Major_Fool and ForeverFree like this.

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  3. UKMarkw

    UKMarkw Sergeant

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    The cross of St Andrew? Really?
  4. AUG351

    AUG351 2nd Lieutenant

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    "Know that there is a way to be proud of one’s Southern heritage without sporting the Confederate flag."

    There's a difference between displaying the flag just for "Southern heritage" and for "Southern heritage" meaning Confederate ancestors you wish to remember. Anyone can see the flag however they want to see it but I personally look at it by the purpose it was originally meant to be used for and the symbolism the flag was originally suppose to represent. Its the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, the stars stand for the states that seceded and the red stands for Christianity. Take the American flag for instance; it represents our nation, the stars represent our 50 states and the stripes represent the 13 colonies. You wouldn't look at it as a symbol of racism, even though the KKK fly it.
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  5. unionblue

    unionblue Brev. Brig. Gen'l

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    "It was not the flag of the Confederacy, but simply the banner, the battle-flag, of the Confederate soldier. As such it should not share in the condemnation which our cause received, or suffer from its downfall. The whole world can unite in a chorus of praise to the gallantry of the men who followed where this banner led."

    By CS Private Carlton McCarthy, from his book, Detailed Minutiae of Soldier Life in the Army of Northern Virginia, 1861-1865.


    "But the people who knew what that flag really stood for should have stopped those yahoos from using it as a symbol of what they stood for. But we didn't - and now you had this problem of the confederate flag being identified as a sort of roughneck thing, which it is not."

    Shelby Foote, May, 29, 2000, during a PBS debate on the Confederate flag.
  6. rebelatsea

    rebelatsea Sergeant

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    We have the same problem on a much smaller scale of course.
    Here in The United Kingdom, the Cross of St George, Ensign of England and Ensign and battle flag of the of the Royal Navy, has been hijacked by various unsavoury groups, to the point where people displaying it are being accused of racism, nationalism and being neo - nazi , of all things. Political correctness rules and attempts are made to stop individuals, organisations, town councils et al from flying it, even on St Georges Day ,April 23rd.
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  7. matthew mckeon

    matthew mckeon Brigadier General Moderator

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    Some awesome sexism in the comment sections.
  8. CSA Today

    CSA Today Major

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    Hmm, barely in this country two years and already highly opinionated, I believe “Ugly Americans” is the term for people from this country who visit another country and with little or no understanding of the place start to run off at the mouth with their disapproval.

    "Certainly, I am devoted to the sentiment expressed in the bumper
    sticker, Get your heart in Dixie or get your *** out!”

    Eugene Genovese
  9. proud texan

    proud texan Sergeant

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    Lost me when the UDC was called a hate group, the rest turned into mindless chatter.
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  10. nc11thwwmccall

    nc11thwwmccall Private

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    Proud Texan, I agree. I am a UDC member and we do not employ any use of the battle flag at all. It is/was the soldier's flag. In fact, the former UDC President called the police when the Virginia Flaggers attempted to gather on the steps of the UDC headquarters building in Richmond with the battle flag to protest at VMFA. I joined the UDC because I'm interested in history and I've often said as soon as I hear or see anything unsavory I'm out of there. The writer of the article is entitled to her opinion, but the fact that she assumed the UDC promotes improper use of the battle flag weakens her argument.
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  11. ForeverFree

    ForeverFree 1st Lieutenant

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    A interesting quote from the article:

    ...As Valetin Volosinov once said, “Whenever a sign is present, ideology is present.”

    Of course in America, many people lack the knowledge or understanding of history to appreciate the ideology behind the symbols they use.

    - Alan

  12. AndyHall

    AndyHall Captain

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    The UDC President had directly, face-to-face, advised the leader of the Flaggers a few days previously not to come on to the UDC property. The Flaggers had been pestering the UDC, which headquarters is next door to the VMFA, to actively support their protest. The UDC leadership declined to get involved. So the Flaggers defied the the UDC's instructions and went onto the property anyway, and when (as promised) they were escorted off the property, they orchestrated one of the nastiest internecine campaigns against the UDC I've seen. It was a set-up, staged and orchestrated to make the Virginia Flaggers look like victims of PC oppression. It’s ludicrous.It prompted the vitriolic hyperbole one has learned to expect from such quarters, including comments like these, posted at the online forum, the Southern War Room:

    the guardians embrace treason​

    The South has been betrayed by her very daughters, the United Daughters of the Confederacy!​

    Sucking the breast of the PC crowd!​

    Well for me, they have Sold Their Soul To The Devil, they are Traitors Of The Highest Measure…​

    Maybe we could convince the UDC chapters to secede from the National Chapter.​

    If it sleeps with the enemy, acts like enemy, talks like the enemy…. It IS the enemy!​

    The SCV National & your camp…. Should have their hands around the necks of those that don’t up-hold the charge.​

    And of course, the casual, sort-of-joking-but-maybe-not-really reference to lynching:

    Well, we all knew what the founders did to treasonous leaders……..there was usually rope involved. The founding fathers would roll in they’re graves if they could see what we’ve allowed. Please understand I’m talking about federal leaders…..but some of our UDC are giving in to liberals and their ideas.​

    I was pretty ambivalent about the Flaggers until this incident with the UDC in March of last year. That made it quite clear that the Flaggers' words and deeds were first and foremost about promoting themselves, and will lash out at anyone -- like the leadership of the UDC -- that declines to fall in lock-step behind them.
  13. ForeverFree

    ForeverFree 1st Lieutenant

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    I think many people use the term "hate group" recklessly, and I wish people woud find other, less emotionally charged and constructive ways to desrcibe the actions of certain groups and individuals.

    But having said that: In the first half of the 20th century, the UDC did promote a white supremacist view of society. This was not "hate" but the UDC did push the idea slavery was a happy, contented existence for African Americans, and that blacks basically existed to serve the superior white race. (Basically, they parroted ideas of race held by many in the antebellum era.) The UDC is known to have lobbied for the promotion of books that made such statements, and for the censorship of books which did not make such statements.

    I don't hear much of controversy coming from the UDC today - not that I'm looking for such; but if they're doing a lot of controversial stuff, it's not much in the news. It may be that the current day UDC is getting a bum rap based on what earlier versions of the organization did.

    - Alan
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  14. AndyHall

    AndyHall Captain

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    Alan, my read of the present-day UDC is that, in general, they keep their heads down, do their projects and programs (of somewhat dubious historical narrative though they may be), and try to stay out of the bare-knuckle, confrontational heritage disputes that grab headlines. That's their prerogative, but it also results in accusations of them being "traitors" to the cause by activists determined to prove their own un-reconstructed-ness. It's nasty stuff; one well-known heritage activist publicly referred to a UDC officer whose actions he disagreed with as "skank woman."
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  15. AUG351

    AUG351 2nd Lieutenant

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    “…We must forevermore do honor to our heroic dead. We must forevermore cherish the sacred memories of those four terrible but glorious years of unequal strife. We must forevermore consecrate in our hearts our old battle flag of the Southern Cross – not now as a political symbol, but as the consecrated emblem of an heroic epoch. The people that forgets its heroic dead is already dying at the heart, and we believe we shall be truer and better citizens of the United States if we are true to our past.” - Confederate Veteran Rev. Randolph Harrison McKim
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  16. Jake Patterson

    Jake Patterson Sergeant

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    I feel people look at as a symbol of racism for several reasons... Among them- It represents a country/people that supported slavery (no way to get around that). Also it IS used by the KKK, white supremacists, and skin heads all across the country... The current symbology of the flag is what it is, similar to the Nazi flag.

    I feel bad that those who see it as a symbol of the good things the South represents have been robbed of "their" symbol, but it is what it is.
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  17. AndyHall

    AndyHall Captain

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    I don't feel bad, because as a Southerner I have never seen the need to equate the Confederacy, and the CBF in particular, as synonymous with "the South" in all its long history and many cultures. People can embrace whatever symbols they choose to, but they cannot arbitrarily define what it represents to others. Much of the objection to the CBF is based on its use, not by fringe-y "hate" groups, but by purportedly respectable, upstanding citizens, and (unlike the events of 1861-65), within living memory.

    Or to put it another way, the "soldiers' flag" of 1861-65 doesn't bother me nearly as much as this one does:

    [​IMG]

    That woman is not a skinhead, or a neo-nazi, or a klansman. She is not a member of a "hate group.' I imagine she and her family viewed her as a "good person," and she went to church regularly. She's somebody's wife, somebody's mother, somebody's grandma. And yet her use of the Confederate flag, in that context, seems perfectly clear.

    I can't embrace that symbol and call it my own. Maybe others can, but I can't.
  18. AUG351

    AUG351 2nd Lieutenant

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    I think that if most people knew what the original symbols of the flag represent and the original purpose it served during the war, rather than how some people and some groups use it today, than people would look at it a lot differently, not so much as a symbol of racism.

    As I said, the American flag is used by those same groups but most Americans know that the American flag is a symbol of freedom and many know that the stars represent the 50 states and the stripes represent the 13 colonies. So, because of that people don't see it as a symbol of whatever those groups who fly it represent but by its original meaning. If people saw the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia the same way, as a battle flag, while understanding what the symbols represent, as well as what the flag means to someone with Confederate ancestors, than people may look at it differently.
  19. nc11thwwmccall

    nc11thwwmccall Private

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    As far as TODAY goes, my impression of the UDC as a member is that we keep our heads down and do our thing. I know about the things the organization promoted in the past and if that were still true today I would not be a member. Promoting slavery or any "rose-colored" views of the antebellum South is not something I believe in. Having said that, however, I do know that there are people who would judge me and deem me racist simply for being involved. I can't really do anything about that except continue to try to live peacefully and call out hate when I see it.
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  20. rhp6033

    rhp6033 Sergeant Major

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    I've got a friend of many years who grew up here in Western Washington, worked as an auto mechanic and outfitted cars for dirt-track racing, figure eights, and demolition derbys.

    One year he had a car where he painted a big version of the CFB on the roof, much like the "Dukes of Hazard" "General Lee" car. I asked him what it represented, to him.

    After about an hour of discussion it seemed to me that it didn't mean anything about southern heritage, the Confederacy, honoring Confederate dead, or even racism, etc. In fact, he had never been to the southern part of the U.S. To him, it was little more than a symbol of rebellion against authority, and was popular as such by rednecks in the crowd.

    I decided that trying to educate him about the history behind the CFB was beyond my capabilities and time. (Note: in the race, his linkage seperated at the starting line and he limped off the track without even making a lap).
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  21. CSA Today

    CSA Today Major

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    A big If, the very people doing the telling and the yelling in the national media and on most college campuses about respect for diversity could care less about us or our Confederate ancestors.
    44818_452188364862623_949553944_n.jpg
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