"Seeing the elephant" vs. "Meeting" it ?

KLSDAD

First Sergeant
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I always thought the phrase was "seeing the elephant" and referred to the first time that a soldier went into battle.

I saw the phrase "meeting the elephant" in a book I just started and the author described it as going into battle with no distinction to it being the first time.

Comments?
 
When I began reenacting , I was told my first reenactment was "seeing the elephant". And it seems that it is the phrase used by all units. The phrase I am told(could be wrong) refers to seeing the Barnum Bailey elephant, because they wern't seen on this continent and seeing one is rare. I still don't get it but what do I know. Must be a reference to something new, exciting, and possiby dangerous, is the best I can figure.
 
I have seen it both ways, but most often as "seeing the elephant". In either case the writer was describing his first taste of battle. In your case it may be necessary to read around the phrase for context.
 
According to the source of all wisdom, Wikipedia, "seeing the elephant" was first used in 1835. There are many uses of it described, and none of them have anything to do with war or combat -- it had to do with great emotion.
 
According to the source of all wisdom, Wikipedia, "seeing the elephant" was first used in 1835. There are many uses of it described, and none of them have anything to do with war or combat -- it had to do with great emotion.

That's interesting as I thought the phrase originated with Napoleon's soldiers. Learn something new everyday.:smile:
 
I have seen it both ways, but most often as "seeing the elephant". In either case the writer was describing his first taste of battle. In your case it may be necessary to read around the phrase for context.

Your not reading the same writer that I am because it's clearly a general reference to every battle and not the first one.
 
Your not reading the same writer that I am because it's clearly a general reference to every battle and not the first one.

I hope you are not thinking that I was casting doubts upon your source or saying that it was wrong. That was not my intent. I merely pointed out that in my readings "seeing the elephant" was used in reference to a soldiers first battle. In essence I was agreeing with your first line in the OP. I am sorry if you thought I was being rude or a "know it all". What is the title of your book?
 
I hope you are not thinking that I was casting doubts upon your source or saying that it was wrong. That was not my intent. I merely pointed out that in my readings "seeing the elephant" was used in reference to a soldiers first battle. In essence I was agreeing with your first line in the OP. I am sorry if you thought I was being rude or a "know it all". What is the title of your book?

Sorry for being a bit gruff myself. I was just trying to make clear that the author who referred to "meeting the elephant" clearly had a dif understanding of the phrase than you and I do. It's on page xiv of Andrew Ward's River Run Red.
 
Sorry for being a bit gruff myself. I was just trying to make clear that the author who referred to "meeting the elephant" clearly had a dif understanding of the phrase than you and I do. It's on page xiv of Andrew Ward's River Run Red.

Ah, it's a modern author, so there's a chance he could simply have gotten it wrong. In a period book, at least one could say it's evidence of how at least one quirky person in the period used it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LLZ3KboxDBwC
"The men who served in the Civil War called going into battle 'meeting the elephant.' No one knows exactly why. Perhaps, from a distance, the smoke roiling up from a battle resembled an elephant, but it seems to me just as likely that they could have been referring to the old saw about the blind men and the elephant, each feeling a small portion and none able to describe the beast as a whole."

I'd chalk it up to the author being a military historian but not an etymologist, and so reaching outside his field for a bit of poetic talk about a phrase he didn't quite remember right.

Here's some discussion on "To see the elephant" from Bartlett's Dictionary of Americanisms, 1860:
http://books.google.com/books?id=6EfnQ2HMU9QC&pg=PA392
There's lots more at the link, but Bartlett puts emphasis on the cynical use of the phrase: "to undergo any disappointment of high-raised expectations... For instance, men who volunteered for the Mexican war, expecting to reap lots of glory and enjoyment, but who instead found only sickness, fatigue, privations, and suffering, were said to have 'seen the elephant.'"

That fits with how I've seen it used during the Civil War, with the implication that a person was going to see what he'd only heard exciting stories about before, so that's why it fit best with a person's first experience in battle.

After the war, 1870, the phrase had spread and morphed: "the phrase means to have seen all and to know everything, and is now as current in England as in America." From http://books.google.com/books?id=C-wIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA681

Again, it fits with Civil War veterans telling/asking each other about seeing the elephant, and once having understood war first-hand, being more experienced and jaded.

"Meeting the elephant" just doesn't seem to be a common period phrase, though I'm sure someone somewhere in the period said it as a variation on the usual phrase.
 
I believed using it as only a reference to battle is an early hijacking of the term.

It was used in simpler times to describe a major event or activity that took some efforet to experience.

It described someone with an adventurous bent who set off to see or experience something unusual for himself rather than depend on others tales and descriptions.

One could also say "I have seen the elephant." to describe the fact that he has a significant experience or two under his belt.

Whereas battle could approximate seeing the elephant, I believe the original meaning involved something more of a personal endeavor.
 
Thanks for posting the quote! The explanation you give at the bottom is exactly how I understood it too. As for the author, I think that military history is also reaching outside of his field....:biggrin:

Ah, it's a modern author, so there's a chance he could simply have gotten it wrong. In a period book, at least one could say it's evidence of how at least one quirky person in the period used it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LLZ3KboxDBwC
"The men who served in the Civil War called going into battle 'meeting the elephant.' No one knows exactly why. Perhaps, from a distance, the smoke roiling up from a battle resembled an elephant, but it seems to me just as likely that they could have been referring to the old saw about the blind men and the elephant, each feeling a small portion and none able to describe the beast as a whole."

I'd chalk it up to the author being a military historian but not an etymologist, and so reaching outside his field for a bit of poetic talk about a phrase he didn't quite remember right.


That fits with how I've seen it used during the Civil War, with the implication that a person was going to see what he'd only heard exciting stories about before, so that's why it fit best with a person's first experience in battle.
 
Just as an aside, "seeing the elephant" originally had no necessary connection with battle, or anything military. According to The Dictionary of Americanisms (1859):

"ELEPHANT. To see the elephant is to gain experience of the world, generally at some cost to the investigator. The phrase doubtless originated from some occurrence at a menagerie."[https://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofamer00bartiala#page/136/mode/2up]

So, if you learned anything by putting your hand on a hot stove, you could say you "saw the elephant."
 
Just as an aside, "seeing the elephant" originally had no necessary connection with battle, or anything military. According to The Dictionary of Americanisms (1859):

"ELEPHANT. To see the elephant is to gain experience of the world, generally at some cost to the investigator. The phrase doubtless originated from some occurrence at a menagerie."[https://archive.org/stream/dictionaryofamer00bartiala#page/136/mode/2up]

So, if you learned anything by putting your hand on a hot stove, you could say you "saw the elephant."
That's interesting. I'm trying to remember if the only time I've seen that expression was in fiction. My take on its use was as an expression of the awe and fear of advancing on a heavily defended enemy position.
 
Thanks for posting the quote! The explanation you give at the bottom is exactly how I understood it too. As for the author, I think that military history is also reaching outside of his field....:biggrin:
I believe that I've also seen it as " Looking the Elephant in the Eye" I suppose there might be many applications of the tome, in a military sense with the Elephant being the common denominator.
 
In the book Centennial by James Michener the phrase "had seen the elephant" was used. He was referencing the
the mountain men and early settlers in the early 1840s and it was a negative experience. I'm going to assume
seeing and meeting are used interchangeably.
according to dictionary.com
Experience more than one wants to, learn a hard lesson; also, see combat, especially for the first time. For example, After the expedition lost two climbers in an avalanche, they had seen the elephant and turned back , or On his first tour of duty he saw the elephant . This slangy expression, first recorded in 1835, alludes to having seen all the sights one can see, including that rare beast, and returning home unimpressed or disappointed.
 
My understanding is that if you haven't seen an elephant (the animal), or a picture of one beforehand, it is very difficult to understand the true nature of the creature. Only by seeing the elephant does one have a revelation of what it is really like.

Therefore, in warfare, it's use describes the circumstances in which veterans try to describe to the raw recruit what combat is like. But only by actually engaging in combat for the first time can the recruit truly appreciate and understand it. Hence, he has "seen the elephant".

There may have been other uses of the term, both before the American Civil War and later, but this is my understanding of how it was used during that war.
 
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