Info Needed on Artillery Saber

kevikens

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Location
New Jersey
I recently acquired a model 1840 artillery saber from C. Roby, Chelmsford, Mass. dated 1864. There is nothing unusual about it except the handle and guard which do not appear to be either brass or steel but some kind of "white metal" different from the blade which is typical steel of the period. I also do not think it is a nickel plating. It looks almost like very old aluminum (too expensive in 1864). A magnet shows that, whatever it is, it is not ferrous as while the blade attracts a magnet the guard does not. A number 23 appears on two places. I am sorry for my inability to post photos but I was hoping some collector might know about what this other metal might be and why it would be different from the usual yellow brass. Thanks for any help.
 
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Sight unseen, I'd bet my left leg it's either german silver or silverwashed.

Depending on the copper/nickel ratio, german silver can range from dull white to mirror-shiny.
I think you may be right on that. I discovered the Feuchtwanger cent of the 1830's which was made of german silver and was an attempt to reduce the size of the US once cent piece while retaining its metallic value. I did find a few references to swords of the period employing german silver for the hilt and guard but no images. Also I cannot find any references to C. Roby using german silver in any of his swords. I guess I need some source of his manufacturing processes. If anybody knows more about the Roby manufacturing process using german silver I would appreciate hearing about it. By the way, is the use of german silver considered a cut above yelloww brass? Thanks again.
 
By the way, is the use of german silver considered a cut above yelloww brass?

In an era when seemingly everything was plain jane brass, german silver would have been found as appealing.

It's real value lies in corrosion resistance... in addition to the copper/nickel ratio, zinc was added for a superior finish.

Too much zinc, and you'll have embrittlement issues.

On a side note, ever weld on galvanized steel?
The zinc will let you know it's there!
:O o:
 
The 5th New York Duryee Zouaves non-regulation officer's sword with German silver hilt, dark gray shagreen grip and brass wire wrap; image credit on full record
.

98-01.jpg


98-02.jpg

Link: http://www.prices4antiques.com/Swor...ouaves-Identified-1861-Scabbard-E8901201.html


 
Yes, that looks like it. now I need to find out if the german silver version is worth more than the yellow brass.
 
Welding galvanized? Oh, yeah, how about "metal fume fever"? It will produce phosphine gas, very similar to phosgene gas. After a day of welding galvanized you will be as sick as a dog.....if you can make a full day. Recovery can take as long as another two days. I worked in a factory where we welded Zinc plated sheet metal, the less exposure the better! OK, I've drifted off topic, but the previous post by 7th Texas brought it all back to mind.
J.
 
Really?!!!
Is it really that close to yours?
The appearance of the metal, the german silver, but it is a different sword, the Model 1840 light artillery sword. The Roby and the Ames artillery sabers look identical, except for this Roby model that uses the german silver. I wonder if any of the Ames swords ever used german silver? Thanks for finding a picture of german silver in a Civil War era sword. I found verbal information about the use of german silver in swords but, for the life of me, could not find one pictured.
 
I'm not an expert and, at first, I wasn't sure if this example was a replica or a copy made in India. I've never heard of German silver used in US Army swords.
 
Was any resolution ever reached as to whether Roby ever used German silver to produce regulation M1840 artillery sabers? It would seem very unlikely for an ordnance-procured item, but perhaps a private purchase? Were there inspector marks on the blade and/or hilt?
 
I'm not an expert and, at first, I wasn't sure if this example was a replica or a copy made in India. I've never heard of German silver used in US Army swords.
I found several US Civil War swords on old auction sites where the pommel and guard were described as being made of german silver but as the listings had long ago expired they had taken down the pictures. The one you provided was the only CW sword that had a picture attached and that's what I needed to see, the appearance of the metal. Nickel was just coming into use circa 1860's but was being used on weapons as a nickel plating and was very bright and shiny. German silver is a duller metal, something like the US five cent piece which is a copper-nickel alloy (but no zinc) one that allowed for casting. I suspect that some swords described a nickel plated are really solid alloys of german silver which had been around since at least as the late 1830's. Again look at the US Feuchtwanger cent piece of 1837. If in your research you find anything about the use of this alloy, particularly the C. Roby firm please let me know. I did show it to a guy at an antiques weapons show this past weekend and he said it was a scarce variety but I'd prefer to see this in print.
 
Nickel was just coming into use circa 1860's but was being used on weapons as a nickel plating and was very bright and shiny.
I'm more familiar with Pennsylvania rifles and other handguns. They used silver inlay to decorate their rifles. Of course, these could be fabricated out of coins and other remnants from a silversmith. Not the same as casting or making an entire sword grip.

but I'd prefer to see this in print.
Roger that.

Photo of my replica Bedford County rifle (circa 1840-1860) with a German silver "Fish" inlay for the barrel pin.
BedfordCty0.jpg
 
Was any resolution ever reached as to whether Roby ever used German silver to produce regulation M1840 artillery sabers? It would seem very unlikely for an ordnance-procured item, but perhaps a private purchase? Were there inspector marks on the blade and/or hilt?
Boy, this is getting to be quite a search. First on the sword itself. As I wrote above, on the pommel, at the rear is the number 23. That number is repeated on one side of the circular projection from the quillon. I have no idea what this signifies. On one side of the ricasso is the manufacturer's name C. ROBY, and underneath, in a kind of circular arc, Chelmsford, Mass. On the other side of the ricasso in U.S. and 1864. There are no inspection marks on this side and Roby swords and sabers, especially the Model 1860 light cavalry saber, usually have them right there. There may be very faint marks on the guard where the quillon meets the knuckle bow but it's hard to tell as this saber has quite a bit of wear wherever it was not protected by the scabbard. From the Springfield Arsenal Museum site I learned (paraphrasing) that there are no existing records of purchases of the 1840 light artillery sabers from Roby and "this "in spite of existing examples of Roby-marked light artillery sabers". The site goes on to say that " a number of these scarce Roby artillery sabers have been found with nickel plated scabbards from the 1902 Ordnance Department directive indicating use into the 20th century". I have just signed up at the Sword Forum and will post this query there and report anything they can tell me. Thanks again for all this help.
 
I have a hunch that some entire swords were imported by Roby. "German silver" might be best regarded as white brass.

The manner in which the sword of this thread was marked to Roby might be telling. Also be very sure the sword in question does not have a heavy silver or nickel wash. Roby, as a company, continued briefly after the war.

I have seen claims of Ames militia swords of the early years appearing with white brass fittings but my example, complete with metal scabbard is silver wash on brass.


A good many ACW swords ended up nickel plated, so again, due scrutiny. It was "the thing to do" for GAR walls and parades.

Cheers

GC
 
I know about the nickel plating on guns. I have a German Suhl naval musket of 1849 that was purchased for the city of Phila. in 1861. The Wurflein brothers proofed and marked them. After the war the GAR appropriated them and nickel plated them for their parades. In my latest research I found for sale at the Civil War Antique shop a Model 1840 artillery saber that is listed as nickel plated and dated 1862 but was made by Ames at Chicopee, Mass. and is marked Conn. The poster conjectures it may have been a prototype for officer's version of the 1840. it is item SW-8-2400. The author of Manufactures of Regulation Model Enlisted Swords during the US Civil war says of C. Roby that they made "an unknown number of 1840 light artillery swords".
 
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