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If the CSA had won would they have fought in the world wars?

Discussion in '"What if..." Discussions' started by ForeverBlue, Mar 9, 2012.

  1. OpnCoronet

    OpnCoronet Captain

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    Without slavery, what made Ky different from Ohio or Va. from Pa. that such difference(s) would have required separation?
    The point being, if the csa won its independence, why would they sacrifice that which was the cause of their independence in the first place?
     

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  3. CSA Today

    CSA Today Major

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    An interesting article on how geographical, cultural and ethic background factors affect attitudes and how people from different regions think and vote.

    Behind the red state-blue state divide


    http://www.salon.com/2012/03/13/behind_the_red_state_blue_state_divide/singleton/

    “We cannot hope to preserve our traditions, our beliefs, and our symbols -- we cannot hope to survive as a people, if we do not know, if we do not remember who we are and what defines us as a people.”

    Professor Melvin E. Bradford
     
  4. Republican Blues

    Republican Blues Sergeant Major

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  5. OpnCoronet

    OpnCoronet Captain

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    Yet the CW was caused by an attempted separation over an imaginary East-West geographical line; what made that particular geographical point the nexus of secession and war?(the same imaginary line that separated Ky from Ohio and Va. from Pa.)
     
  6. KeyserSoze

    KeyserSoze 1st Lieutenant Forum Host

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    When the provisional Confederate Constitution was being debated in Montgomery one of the first objections registered, by Alexander Stephens no less, was about the name - The Confederate States of North America. Stephens thought the name to limiting given that expansion was expected. The 1860 Democrate Platforms that both Douglas and Breckenridge both ran on had platforms calling for the acquisition of Cuba. There is no doubt that the Confederate founders had expansion on their minds. And that expansion was headed south.
     
  7. Dugger

    Dugger Banned

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    Tks....I got kinda heated over this...Sorry, but at times I just go ballistic over the lack of historical knowlege. To be fair, I am also an idiot many issues.

    You say "perfectly plausible scenario" tks.............well hell...........no sh#t. Some here seem unable to think past the Antebllum era...it is gone, "Gone With the Wind". TR Roovevelt might very well have stopped the IDIOCY begat by the Civil War. Re-unification.
     
  8. Dugger

    Dugger Banned

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    OK! U good Keyser....but I not totally happy yet!:skip:
     
  9. Dugger

    Dugger Banned

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    Why would there have been a second or third war! OVER WHAT? Pls tell me. Pls. Slavery....gone by the 20th century...I mean it....gone. We could have killed each other over who made the best fired chicken,,,,or Yankee meat loaf. Geeze.

    Key word...OVER WHAT? Think. In am still freaking out over this thread and what some still profess to believe in the year 2012. Wow. Freaky. It's over. 150 years.....over dudes. Conquest? Done deal..........over.
     
  10. Dugger

    Dugger Banned

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  11. NedBaldwin

    NedBaldwin 1st Lieutenant

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    You are freaking out. Take a chill pill and get a reality check.

    War could happen for any number of possible reasons when you have two antagonistic countries with a long border.

    France and England went to war against each other about 8 times in the 18th century.
    Germany and France warred multiple times between 1870 and 1940.
    Brazil and Argentine fought wars against each other multiple times in the 1800s
    So did Chile and Peru.
    So did Japan and China.
    I'm sure there are other examples.

    Reasons came up for us to go to war with England in 1812 and Mexico in the 1840s and with Spain in 1898.
    We almost went to war with England in 1838 over the border of Maine; tensions got heated again 20 years later over the border at the other end of the continent. We also had multiple tense moments with Mexico including several cross border military incursions. Now instead of the USA dealing with England or Mexico, consider the USA and the CSA eyeing each other over a long border.



    So what.
    I think a second war would have been fought before the end of the 19th century.
     
  12. Bob Owen

    Bob Owen Captain Forum Host Trivia Game Winner

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    It's my opinion and belief that both sides would in time co-exist like we do with Canada if the South had won.
     
  13. Dugger

    Dugger Banned

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    I have taken a chill pill. I have an unfortunate tendency to perhaps over-defend a position I take and disregard what others might be trying to say. But...I would have defended Little Round Top to the bitter end.:D
     
  14. Rebel from Finland

    Rebel from Finland First Sergeant

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    I read also somewhere here on CWT that Jeff Davis didn´t want to accept Mexicos recognition of CS cause he thought it would be embarrassing to declare war against the first nation that recognized their independence. So yes, CS was, maybe not planning cause they had their hands full in homefront, but talking and pondering expansion towards south. If someone remember this he/she can provide a lik or source for that if needed, I failed to find it.
     
  15. Baggage Handler #2

    Baggage Handler #2 2nd Lieutenant

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    War Plan Red from the 1930's covers this.
    FWIW, the British seemed to have backed off on their planning after WWI.

    So ... if by coexistence with Canada, we mean at least one direct war, a lot of saber rattling, and couple of wars by proxy with maybe a total of 150 - 180 years of active contingency planning, I think this might be an OK model.
     
  16. CSA Today

    CSA Today Major

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    An independent CSA, like any other nation, would have made the decision to go to war, or not, or with whom, based solely on national interest.

    “The South does not claim the right of controlling the North in the choice of a President; she admits fully and explicitly that the Northern people possess the prerogative of voting as they please. But at the same time the South asserts that while the North holds the legal right of casting her voice as to her may seem best, she has no moral right to so cast it, in full view of its injurious effects upon us,…she, in effect, commits an act of covert hostility upon us that will render it impossible for us to live longer in harmonious relations.”

    (The Central Theme of Southern History, Ulrich B. Phillips; Slavery As A Cause of the Civil War, E. Rozwenc, editor, DC Heath and Company, 1949, page 22)
     
  17. BillO

    BillO 1st Lieutenant

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  18. OpnCoronet

    OpnCoronet Captain

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    If the csa possessed the Phillipines, without a large ocean going Navy(or a secure Pacific base) the csa would most likely have to follow the Vichy French example and bow to the realities of geography and Real Politik(the usual fate of nations too weak, for whatever reason, to defend themselves)
     
  19. Baggage Handler #2

    Baggage Handler #2 2nd Lieutenant

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    The southern economy was wrecked by the war. If the war had been won, it still would have been a wreck until some time in the 20th century.

    If the southern states had won independence, there would have been at least two very significant pressures.
    First, the US, having been once bitten, would have maintained a large standing - large enough to prevent the CSA from unilaterally declaring that this or that US territory actually belonged to the CSA. Typically, when a war is lost, the party in power at the time gets exchanged for something more hawkish. It's a pure fantasy to suppose any US government of the 1880's would have viewed the CS with anything other than distrust. The first step would have been an opening of the borders and guarantees of protection for any escaped slave.

    Second, at the start of the war, the slave/free ratio was nearly 1:1 in the deeply southern states. Four years of war changed that equation - maybe 3:2 for men of fighting age. The full resources and concentration of the CS government would have been needed to keep the peace at home. Any threat of a John Brown or Nat Turner rebellion before the war would have amplified a thousand times afterward.

    There's more of course, but the combined effect of these two, coupled with the potential Balkanization of the western & northern CS states would be plenty to keep any such government occupied. They'd have no resources to pursue an external war.
     
  20. BillO

    BillO 1st Lieutenant

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    Countries that lose wars tend to make major changes in their war making strategies while winners tend to stick to the old tried and true. Using the French and their Maginot Line as an example. The British with their tanks supporting the infantry. Suspect the CSA would have gone to an improved Militia system as the Swiss have and would have built a navy suitable for defense at least.
     
  21. Bob Owen

    Bob Owen Captain Forum Host Trivia Game Winner

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    The Southern economy is at present stronger than the North's due to right to work States of the South.
     

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