If Pickett's Charge succeeded, what did Lee intend to do next?

Sorry I should have said, the map is from Trudeau " Gettysburg, a testing of courage" . I found it a very good account and the maps are a great help when visiting the battlefield. Glad I could help.

I even have that one. I just don't remember that map in it. Off to my bookshelf I go!

Ryan
 
I hope this will help, it's not that clear but at the moment it's all I have got.

Thanks, that's about right, but it is very compacted and some of the Federal regiments are out of place. For example: Flag G2 below of the 28th VA (second from the left regiment of Garnett's Brigade) was captured by Private Marshall Sherman of 1st MN. This map shows 1st MN North of the Copse of trees, whereas there are contemporary 1st MN sources indicating that the regiment on July 3rd was at the same place they were on July 2nd, close to the current 1st MN memorial that is way to the right of this map....

img087flags-jpg.jpg
 
Thanks, that's about right, but it is very compacted and some of the Federal regiments are out of place. For example: Flag G2 below of the 28th VA (second from the left regiment of Garnett's Brigade) was captured by Private Marshall Sherman of 1st MN. This map shows 1st MN North of the Copse of trees, whereas there are contemporary 1st MN sources indicating that the regiment on July 3rd was at the same place they were on July 2nd, close to the current 1st MN memorial that is way to the right of this map....

img087flags-jpg.jpg

The 1st Minnesota apparently started the battle with the rest of Harrow's Brigade, which formed a line south of Hall's Brigade and just to the north of Stannard's Brigade. Captain Coates would report that they would sleep on their arms in the same place where they started. I take that to mean before they were shifted to the left in support of McGilvery's artillery line.

Captain Coates would continue:

At daybreak the next morning the enemy renewed the battle with vigor on the right and left of our line with infantry, and about 10 a.m. opened upon the center, where we were posted, a most severe fire of artillery, which continued without intermission until 3 p.m., when heavy columns of the enemy's infantry were thrown suddenly forward against our position. They marched resolutely in the face of a withering fire up to our lines, and succeeded in planting their colors on one of our batteries. The point of attack was to the right of our position, and held by the Second Brigade of our division (Second Division, Second Army Corps). As the enemy approached, we were moved by the right flank to oppose them, firing upon them as we approached, and sustaining their fire, together with the fire of batteries which they had brought up to within short range. The fighting here was desperate for a time. At length the regiment and others closed in upon the enemy, and nearly the whole of the rebel force which remained alive were taken prisoners. About 500 were captured by this regiment; also the colors of the Twenty-eighth Virginia Regiment, taken by Private Marshall Sherman, of Company C.

To my mind, the 1st moved north, parallel to the wall, ending up around the Copse of Trees, along with a number of other units who were also shadowing the Confederate attack.

Ryan
 
The 1st Minnesota apparently started the battle with the rest of Harrow's Brigade, which formed a line south of Hall's Brigade and just to the north of Stannard's Brigade. Captain Coates would report that they would sleep on their arms in the same place where they started. I take that to mean before they were shifted to the left in support of McGilvery's artillery line.

Captain Coates would continue:



To my mind, the 1st moved north, parallel to the wall, ending up around the Copse of Trees, along with a number of other units who were also shadowing the Confederate attack.

Ryan


I think that we may have discussed this before :smile:

This "As the enemy approached, we were moved by the right flank to oppose them" is pretty ambiguous.

I interpret it that "the right flank" means the Confederate right flank (otherwise he would have used "our" instead of "the", and if there was a mass movement in column? of the whole regiment to the Union Second Division right flank, would be prone to enfilading fire from the Confederates and pretty much dead ducks; and they did not have many casualties on July 3rd.) Now, the Confederate R flank was either Kemper, or even Wilcox. I suspect that the 1st MN supported Stannard's Bridage that moved against Kemper, so if anything, they moved South or West, by the VT monument and not by the CoT. This, plus figuring out that Kemper's R started right about and just N of Sherfy's house, closing the line after casualties etc, makes me think that the Confederate front at the point of attack was pretty much from the PA/VT monuments to the Bryan barn/house area
 
I think that we may have discussed this before :smile:

This "As the enemy approached, we were moved by the right flank to oppose them" is pretty ambiguous.

I interpret it that "the right flank" means the Confederate right flank (otherwise he would have used "our" instead of "the", and if there was a mass movement in column? of the whole regiment to the Union Second Division right flank, would be prone to enfilading fire from the Confederates and pretty much dead ducks; and they did not have many casualties on July 3rd.) Now, the Confederate R flank was either Kemper, or even Wilcox. I suspect that the 1st MN supported Stannard's Bridage that moved against Kemper, so if anything, they moved South or West, by the VT monument and not by the CoT. This, plus figuring out that Kemper's R started right about and just N of Sherfy's house, closing the line after casualties etc, makes me think that the Confederate front at the point of attack was pretty much from the PA/VT monuments to the Bryan barn/house area

Moving by the right flank is a tactical movement, e.g., the regiment in line of battles faces to the right and marches. When they reach their destination, they simply face face left. It was a common method of changing places without breaking up the line to form a maneuver column and allowed for the line of battle to be shifted laterally.

In this case, the unit had to face right (still in two rank line of battle), and march right to meet the enemy in a column of twos with file closers to the right. Marching by the flank was one of the most common tactical movements.
 
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I think that we may have discussed this before :smile:

This "As the enemy approached, we were moved by the right flank to oppose them" is pretty ambiguous.

I interpret it that "the right flank" means the Confederate right flank (otherwise he would have used "our" instead of "the", and if there was a mass movement in column? of the whole regiment to the Union Second Division right flank, would be prone to enfilading fire from the Confederates and pretty much dead ducks; and they did not have many casualties on July 3rd.) Now, the Confederate R flank was either Kemper, or even Wilcox. I suspect that the 1st MN supported Stannard's Bridage that moved against Kemper, so if anything, they moved South or West, by the VT monument and not by the CoT. This, plus figuring out that Kemper's R started right about and just N of Sherfy's house, closing the line after casualties etc, makes me think that the Confederate front at the point of attack was pretty much from the PA/VT monuments to the Bryan barn/house area

I think that you have Kemper too far south. His two right hand regiments were to the north of where Stannard's line extended to the west, taking them in the flank. I put Kemper's flank line facing south, on a line slightly north of the Codori House with the left flank about 150 yards of the Union line and about the same distance east of the Emmitsburg Road at its longest. Obviously, the line would be continuously contracting due to casualties.

Of course, you and I have gone around on this one before. At least we keep it civil, my friend. :wink:

Ryan
 
Moving by the right flank is a tactical movement, e.g., the regiment in line of battles faces to the right and marches. When they reach their destination, they simply face face left. It was a common method of changing places without breaking up the line to form a maneuver column and allowed for the line of battle to be shifted laterally.

In this case, the unit had to face right (still in two rank line of battle), and march right to meet the enemy in a column of twos with file closers to the right. Marching by the flank was one of the most common tactical movements.

Absolutely correct.
 
In theory, Anderson's and Rodes' Divisions were to move to the attack, supporting and exploiting any success that the first wave gained. Beyond splitting the lines and driving the Union troops off of the ridge, I'm not sure there actually was a plan of attack.

As for Stuart, he was sent out the Hanover Road to guard the left flank, not for any planned attack or to follow up on a retreat.

Ryan
Is there a reliable book on Lee's retreat from Gettysburg? I have heard that Lee had a welcome sign out if Meade did follow him and that was one of the reasons Meade was hesitant to follow.
 
Is there a reliable book on Lee's retreat from Gettysburg? I have heard that Lee had a welcome sign out if Meade did follow him and that was one of the reasons Meade was hesitant to follow.

I would recommend One Continuous Fight: The Retreat from Gettysburg and the Pursuit of Lee's Army of Nothern Virginia, July 4-14 by our very own @Eric Wittenberg.

Ryan
 
I will abbreviate the Pickett-Pettigrew-Trimble Charge with PPT for the rest of this thread.

If the PPT Charge succeed, and the PPT troops drove the Union Second Corps from Cemetary Ridge, it seems to me that such a success could put the PPT troops and the rest of the ANV in a precarious position. If the PPT troops drove the Union Second Corps off Cemetary Ridge, it would not be feasible for the PPT troops to just remain stationary on Cemetary Ridge because the PPT troops would be so vulnerable to artillery fire from Cemetary Hill, Little Round Top, and possibly Culp's Hill. Cemetary Ridge is open ground, and Cemetary RIdge is right in between Cemetary Hill and Little Round Top. If the PPT Charge succeeded in driving the Federals off Cemetary Ridge and the Confederates did not do any further action to exploit their success, the PPT CHarge would just leave the ANV with about 10,000 isolated PPT troops positioned on Cemetary RIdge in between the great masses of Federal troops on Cemetary Hill, Culp's Hill, and Little Round Top.

A Civil War buff I once knew told me that if the PPT Charge succeeded, Lee's plan was for the PPT troops to roll the retreating Union Second Corps up towards Cemetary Hill. Lee's plan was also for JEB Stuart's cavalry to assist rolling the Union Second Corps up towards Cemetary Hill. This Civil War buff I knew said that the Union artillery would not be able to fire at the PPT TRoops because the PPT troops would be too close to the retreating Union Second Corps. The Union artillery would not be able to fire at the PPT troops because the Union artillery might accidentally hit the Union Second Corps. THe CIvil War buff I knew said that Lee's plan was for the PPT Troops to attack Cemetary Hill once the PPT Troops got to Cemetary Hill. The other Confederate troops near Cemetary Hill would attack the Union troops at Cemetary Hill at the same time. This could also endanger the Union troops on Culp's Hill. If the PPT troops and other Confederate troops could take Cemetary Hill like this, this would amount to defeating the entire AoP rather than just a minor, isolated victory against the Union Second Corps.

However, I have researched the Battle of Gettysburg extensively, and I have never seen any book about the Battle of Gettysburg say that Lee's plan after the PPT troops drove the Union Second Corps off Cemetary Hill was for the PPT troops to help take Cemetary Hill.

Was the Civil War buff who told me that Lee's plan after Pickett's Charge succeeded was for the PPT troops to immediately march towards Cemetary Hill and attack the Union troops on Cemetary Hill? If so, what is your source for this?

It just occurred to me that some people might say that the fact that Lee sent JEB Stuart's cavalry to exploit the retreat means that Lee intended for the PPT Troops to attack Cemetary Hill, but that fact alone does not prove that Lee intended for the PPT Troops to immediately attack Cemetary Hill after taking Cemetary Ridge. Lee could have had JEB Stuart's troops assigned to exploit the retreat without an attempt to take Cemetary Hill. Lee could have had JEB Stuart's troops exploit the retreat just to ensure that the Union Second Corps stayed disorganized and to ensure that the Union Second Corps did not rally again to retake Cemetary Ridge.



If the Civil War buff who told me that was incorrect, can you cite any evidence from any source about what Lee's plan was if Pickett's CHarge succeeded? If so, what is your source?


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Edited to add this: By the way, I am aware of the fact that Meade had about 13,000 reserves from the Sixth Corps that arrived right after Pickett's Charge was repulsed. I'm aware of the fact that if the PPT Troops drove the Union Second Corps from Cemetary Ridge, the PPT Charge would have been repulsed by the Sixth Corps reserves which alone outnumbered the PPT Troops. When Lee ordered Pickett's Charge, Lee did not know about the 13,000 reserves Meade had. This thread is about what Lee's plan was, not about the chances of the success of the PPT Charge. Therefore, let's not digress into discussions about how the PPT could never have succeeded.

If Meade had a million reserves readily accessible to Cemetary Ridge that Lee did not know about, it would not change what Lee's plan was since Lee was not aware of Meade's reserves.
I have never seen evidence that there was a plan, contingency or otherwise, for the aftermath of the PPT attack beyond having Anderson and Rodes ready to support the attack. Neither of those two division commanders received instructions that I've heard of during the PPT attack. Lee had a track record of the same indefinite, wait and see, approach to attack follow-up. There seem to have been no concrete plans to exploit Jackson's flank attack at Chancellorsville. If there were, Jackson took them to his grave and Lee never said anything. The same was true of Longstreet's flank attack at Second Manassas and at the Wilderness. Stuart was to guard the Confederate left flank during the PPT attack and in the event he had his hands full with Union cavalry. I don't believe Lee had plans for Stuart to support or exploit the PPT attack other than guarding that flank. Summing up, the answer to the hypothetical is that Lee's intentions in the event of success in the PPT attack are unknown.
 
I would generally assume that Lee intended for the PPT and Ewell's troops, etc. to get into the Union rear along with Stuart, etc. and inflict a tactical defeat on disordered, retreating Union troops a la Chancellorville, etc. They may have also capture enough ammunition and artillery to threaten the Baltimore turnpike, allowing the letter to be placed in Lincoln's hands, etc.
 
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