Fort Pillow

He may have done what he could to stop it. But he might have been able to do more if he had been able to be honest in court about what he did, and why he stopped. It sounds like he had a chance to do a lot of good in front of a wide audience, to do the right thing, and he threw this chance away to save his own hide.

I know you will say he was a survivor, and I guess that's true. And I know people make that kind of choice every day and life goes on. It's just a sad thing to see.
 
I point it out not because it's "perfectly alright to murder unarmed men who had surrendered in cold blood" but because they claimed there had been a formal surrender of the fort and 300 or more were killed after this surrender....which was a lie.

Understand Mr."Moderator?"

Well, you could have fooled me. I posted what I've seen and understand you to have posted here and elsewhere. I tell the truth as I see it w/ no out of context. I don't use Amazon book reviews to back up my points but actual established authors and period documentation. Which is what has led me to my opinions of what happened at Ft Pillow.

You know quite well that a formal surrender is not needed to surrender. The majority of CS troops who surrendered didn't do so formally and they weren't shot down after surrendering.

What you and other deniers have never been able to get past is the KIA to WIA ratio at Ft Pillow or the CS accounts of what happened that don't mesh w/ what you deny happened.
 
That's fourth-hand information.

Well, third-hand to Stanley. :smile:

I don't think much credence is put in the story, but Wills does tell us previous to this story that there was no doubt that Forrest had killed a black man in Murfreesboro. Pryor and Jordan, in their biography, say the black man was a "camp follower" of the Minnesota troops who was firing at Forrest when Forrest shot and killed him.


Well, that's a rumor. Was it substantiated?

Don't know that it has been; however, if we look at everything together it paints a picture of a guy--who is a slaveholder and a former slave trader--who is grappling with the idea of blacks fighting against him.

Regards,
Cash
 
One thing about the 3rd MN surrendering, they never again saw the black laundresses or young black men who were cooks and servants. Over the years I've seen reference to the belief that they had been sent south into slavery. There were charges that the black women had been raped and murdered but I've never given that credence as it isn't consistant w/ what I know of Forrest.
 
This is a great post, but your conclusions are flawed. Forrest was only part of the klan in Tennessee, a group that originated in Pulaski and became organized in Nashville.

I understand what you're saying, Larry, and to a great extent, you're correct.

"One story has it that between late 1866 and early 1867 Gordon, who soon would establish a law practice in Memphis, journeyed there to bring the Klan and its regulatory possibilities to the attention of Forrest. This version of the Klan's initial overture came from an unidentified Klan associate of John Morton, and it holds that Forrest accepted Gordon's news emphatically, saying, 'That's a good thing; that's a dam*ed good thing. We can use that to keep the n*****s in their place.' The story purports to have come to its unidentfied teller through Morton himself, and adds that Forrest quickly went to Nashville, sought out Morton, and asked him about the Klan and how to join. It continues that he was driven by Morton out into the countryside, where Morton offered to administer him the oath; at which point, the story concludes, Forrest laughed loudly, slapped Morton on the back, and said: 'Why you dam*ed little fool, don't you know I'm head of the whole dam*ed thing?'

"Morton's own version of Forrest's preliminary induction into the Klan, a sidling gift to posterity in the form of a magazine article reprinted in the appendix of his memoirs, doesn't mention Gordon, saying only that Forrest came to Nashville 'when rumors of the Kuklux Klan first spread over Tennnessee.' Arriving there, he found Morton and told him he knew the Klan was 'organized in Nashville, and I know you are in it. I want to join.' The magazine article, whose details writer Thomas Dixon Jr. later disclosed came from Morton himself, says Morton then drove Forrest to a wooded area out of town, administered him a preliminary Klan oath, and told him to go to a room at the Maxwell House Hotel later that evening to learn the rest of the Klan's secrets. The conclusion of this story has Morton then driving Forrest back into town to meet his fiancée, whom Forrest advised: 'Miss Annie, if you can get John Morton, you take him. I know him. He'll take care of you.'

"The truth may lie in a combination of these accounts." [Jack Hurst, _Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography,_ pp. 284-285]

"In April 1867, one such association of ex-Confederates met in Nashville to organize. This budding organization was the Ku Klux Klan, and its popularity was increasing rapidly. At some point concurrent with this meeting, Bedford Forrest traveled to Nashville to attempt to join it. He visited with his former artillery chief, John Morton, who was Grand Cyclops of the Nashville Den. Morton apparently administered a preliminary oath to his former superior and directed him to return to the Maxwell House for a more formal ceremony. One of the original members of the Klan, James R. Crowe, wrote nearly forty years later, 'After the order grew to large numbers we found it necessary to have someone of large experience to command. We chose General Forrest.' Another man who became a member of the Klan in Memphis later observed, 'N. B. Forrest of Confederate fame was at our head, and was known as the Grand Wizard. I heard him make a speech in one of our Dens.' " [Brian Steel Wills, A Battle From the Start: The Life of Nathan Bedford Forrest, pp. 335-336]

However:

"There never has been any serious doubt that the first and only Grand Wizard was General Nathan Bedford Forrest. He never admitted the fact in so many words, but his later statements to the press and to a Congressional committee in 1871 help to confirm the notion which was almost universally shared by members and nonmembers alike." [Allen W. Trelease, White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction, p. 19]

William T. Blackford was the probate judge in Hale County, Alabama. He was an active Republican politician who was very effective in getting blacks out to vote for Republicans, and he worked to ensure blacks retained their rights. In January of 1871, the local KKK raided his home in Greensboro, which was the county seat, but he escaped. It happened that Forrest came to Greensboro on business. "Nathan Bedford Forrest arrived in Greensboro soon after the raid, and Blackford asked for his protection. The general gave him a highly confidential and vastly impressive account of the size, prowess, and methods of the Ku Klux Klan; like most of Forrest's pronouncements, it did not suffer from understatement. He urged the judge to resign, indicating that it was hopeless to remain and try to breast the tide." [Allen W. Trelease, _White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction,_ p. 305]

Alabama is not Tennessee. Forrest was based in Tennessee--that's where he lived, after all, but his reach extended to the Klan throughout the south.



He ordered that group DISBANDED and ceased.

Such is Forrest's claim. He put out an order on January 25 that curtailed Klan activity, but it specified "it was not to be understood as a complete disbandment of the Klan; on the contrary, the organization should hold together more firmly than ever before to guard against any emergency." [Allen W. Trelease, _White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction,_ p. 180]

To the extent that Forrest wanted to curtail the Klan's activity, take a look at who controlled the real power in Tennessee in 1869. Forrest and the conservatives pulled the strings.

Far as we can tell, that happened.

See the above. And it was not just Forrest, but the entire conservative leadership of Tennessee.

"It is impossible to reconcile all these accounts. But it is clear that the Conservative gentry of Tennessee renounced the Ku Klux Klan and severed their connection with it by the summer of 1869. Their peers in Arkansas, Texas, and northern Alabama were following the same course, as were the White Camellias in Louisiana. But in many places Conservatives would find the Klan a usable instrument for up to two more years." [Allen W. Trelease, _White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction,_ p. 184]

But again, Forrest's reach went beyond Tennessee.

Regards,
Cash
 
The KKK was not a monolithic organization. Local groups acted independently of any central authority, so Forrest's issuing an order to dissolve would not have had widespread effect. Ever since then, continuing today, there have been active elements of the KKK .

The claim is often made that Forrest ordered the KKK dissolved. That's an all-encompassing statement. So you agree, then, that Forrest did not disband the KKK in the south?

Regards,
Cash
 
Absolutely. What I've been trying to say is that Forrest did his thing, did what he could to stop the activity and got out. What happened afterward "ain't his baby". He didn't start it, though he decided it had a useful political and realistic purpose at the moment and then became convinced otherwise. He doesn't deserve hanging for that. Take a look at his grandson Bedford Forrest II and go get a rope.

I'm not hanging either of them. See my previous post.

Regards,
Cash
 
The claim is often made that Forrest ordered the KKK dissolved. That's an all-encompassing statement. So you agree, then, that Forrest did not disband the KKK in the south?

Regards,
Cash

Forrest disbanded the group of which he was a member, that being the Nashville group, headed by John Watson Morton. There's no evidence that I know of that he was involved beyond that. The concept quickly spread through the south and also into several northern states, as least Indiana where the klan reached tremendous numbers (I'm no klan scholar, so cut me some slack here, please) and in Georgia, South and North Carolina. The klan grew like a cancer on the land, with no help from Forrest (NB I).
 
He may have done what he could to stop it. But he might have been able to do more if he had been able to be honest in court about what he did, and why he stopped. It sounds like he had a chance to do a lot of good in front of a wide audience, to do the right thing, and he threw this chance away to save his own hide.

I know you will say he was a survivor, and I guess that's true. And I know people make that kind of choice every day and life goes on. It's just a sad thing to see.

By 1871, Forrest was intently engrossed in trying to revive his business interests, the plantations and railroad. Sadly his "hide" was dying. He was gone by 1877.
 
Well, third-hand to Stanley. :smile:

Don't know that it has been; however, if we look at everything together it paints a picture of a guy--who is a slaveholder and a former slave trader--who is grappling with the idea of blacks fighting against him.

Regards,
Cash

He was grappling with the idea of whites fighting against him as well.
 
I understand what you're saying, Larry, and to a great extent, you're correct.

"One story has it that between late 1866 and early 1867 Gordon, who soon would establish a law practice in Memphis, journeyed there to bring the Klan and its regulatory possibilities to the attention of Forrest. This version of the Klan's initial overture came from an unidentified Klan associate of John Morton, and it holds that Forrest accepted Gordon's news emphatically, saying, 'That's a good thing; that's a dam*ed good thing. We can use that to keep the n*****s in their place.' The story purports to have come to its unidentfied teller through Morton himself, and adds that Forrest quickly went to Nashville, sought out Morton, and asked him about the Klan and how to join. It continues that he was driven by Morton out into the countryside, where Morton offered to administer him the oath; at which point, the story concludes, Forrest laughed loudly, slapped Morton on the back, and said: 'Why you dam*ed little fool, don't you know I'm head of the whole dam*ed thing?'

"Morton's own version of Forrest's preliminary induction into the Klan, a sidling gift to posterity in the form of a magazine article reprinted in the appendix of his memoirs, doesn't mention Gordon, saying only that Forrest came to Nashville 'when rumors of the Kuklux Klan first spread over Tennnessee.' Arriving there, he found Morton and told him he knew the Klan was 'organized in Nashville, and I know you are in it. I want to join.' The magazine article, whose details writer Thomas Dixon Jr. later disclosed came from Morton himself, says Morton then drove Forrest to a wooded area out of town, administered him a preliminary Klan oath, and told him to go to a room at the Maxwell House Hotel later that evening to learn the rest of the Klan's secrets. The conclusion of this story has Morton then driving Forrest back into town to meet his fiancée, whom Forrest advised: 'Miss Annie, if you can get John Morton, you take him. I know him. He'll take care of you.'

"The truth may lie in a combination of these accounts." [Jack Hurst, _Nathan Bedford Forrest: A Biography,_ pp. 284-285]

"In April 1867, one such association of ex-Confederates met in Nashville to organize. This budding organization was the Ku Klux Klan, and its popularity was increasing rapidly. At some point concurrent with this meeting, Bedford Forrest traveled to Nashville to attempt to join it. He visited with his former artillery chief, John Morton, who was Grand Cyclops of the Nashville Den. Morton apparently administered a preliminary oath to his former superior and directed him to return to the Maxwell House for a more formal ceremony. One of the original members of the Klan, James R. Crowe, wrote nearly forty years later, 'After the order grew to large numbers we found it necessary to have someone of large experience to command. We chose General Forrest.' Another man who became a member of the Klan in Memphis later observed, 'N. B. Forrest of Confederate fame was at our head, and was known as the Grand Wizard. I heard him make a speech in one of our Dens.' " [Brian Steel Wills, A Battle From the Start: The Life of Nathan Bedford Forrest, pp. 335-336]

However:

"There never has been any serious doubt that the first and only Grand Wizard was General Nathan Bedford Forrest. He never admitted the fact in so many words, but his later statements to the press and to a Congressional committee in 1871 help to confirm the notion which was almost universally shared by members and nonmembers alike." [Allen W. Trelease, White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction, p. 19]

William T. Blackford was the probate judge in Hale County, Alabama. He was an active Republican politician who was very effective in getting blacks out to vote for Republicans, and he worked to ensure blacks retained their rights. In January of 1871, the local KKK raided his home in Greensboro, which was the county seat, but he escaped. It happened that Forrest came to Greensboro on business. "Nathan Bedford Forrest arrived in Greensboro soon after the raid, and Blackford asked for his protection. The general gave him a highly confidential and vastly impressive account of the size, prowess, and methods of the Ku Klux Klan; like most of Forrest's pronouncements, it did not suffer from understatement. He urged the judge to resign, indicating that it was hopeless to remain and try to breast the tide." [Allen W. Trelease, _White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction,_ p. 305]

Alabama is not Tennessee. Forrest was based in Tennessee--that's where he lived, after all, but his reach extended to the Klan throughout the south.





Such is Forrest's claim. He put out an order on January 25 that curtailed Klan activity, but it specified "it was not to be understood as a complete disbandment of the Klan; on the contrary, the organization should hold together more firmly than ever before to guard against any emergency." [Allen W. Trelease, _White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction,_ p. 180]

To the extent that Forrest wanted to curtail the Klan's activity, take a look at who controlled the real power in Tennessee in 1869. Forrest and the conservatives pulled the strings.



See the above. And it was not just Forrest, but the entire conservative leadership of Tennessee.

"It is impossible to reconcile all these accounts. But it is clear that the Conservative gentry of Tennessee renounced the Ku Klux Klan and severed their connection with it by the summer of 1869. Their peers in Arkansas, Texas, and northern Alabama were following the same course, as were the White Camellias in Louisiana. But in many places Conservatives would find the Klan a usable instrument for up to two more years." [Allen W. Trelease, _White Terror: The Ku Klux Klan Conspiracy and Southern Reconstruction,_ p. 184]

But again, Forrest's reach went beyond Tennessee.

Regards,
Cash

This is well presented and I agree with it. What is intriguing about all this is that we'll likely never know the complete truth. Forrest had enough fame in the south and parts of the north to have an impact simply through the use of his name. How much was he involved, we'll never know. From his character and what I do know about him, I doubt he was a wallflower. The political and economic implications of the conditions in Tennessee, Mississippi and Alabama immediately after the war probably don't get enough consideration. Some of this was peace keeping; some of it fear against the possiibility of black uprisings (which I don't believe really happened) and the frustrations by soldiers returning to a devistated land with no legal nor political clout. The klan activity on that small scale made sense and Forrest would have been a logical figurehead and yes certainly had leadership potential. By no means did he lead a national movement. He was too poor and in too fraile health and temperment to have done much of that.
 
I would feel more comfortable with a conclusion that supervison was likely lacking, if possible at all, in the midst of the fighting. Logistics were always an issue. His slave trading came 'after' the plantations. That was a labor source for all, so yes, the two were very closely related. Labor was the reason for slavery, nothing more.
I have long accepted the idea of Forrest being far superior to most of his peers [in] military skill.
Allowing something to happen for psychological effect is perfectly consistent with that. Having a sloppy day - the only sloppy day coinciding with a general killing of USCT, while possible, is not consistent with that.

I'll add the gratuitous note that slavery was about labor as a large SUV is to urban personal transportation. Yes it fills the function, but not efficiently and with huge cultural and status overtones.
 
I have long accepted the idea of Forrest being far superior to most of his peers I'm military skill.
Allowing something to happen for psychological effect is perfectly consistent with that. Having a sloppy day - the only sloppy day coinciding with a general killing of USCT, while possible, is not consistent with that.

I'll add the gratuitous note that slavery was about labor as a large SUV is to urban personal transportation. Yes it fills the function, but not efficiently and with huge cultural and status overtones.

Killing unnecessarily was not in Forrest's bones. He had too many other situations of necessity in which he had no choice. Was he smart enough to have staged an activity for effect? Of course, but his actions throughout his life and the horrible years of war do not support that option.
 
The claim is often made that Forrest ordered the KKK dissolved. That's an all-encompassing statement. So you agree, then, that Forrest did not disband the KKK in the south?

Regards,
Cash


Whoa! Please don't put words in my mouth that might be misconstrued. Forrest did order the KKK to disband; however, his control was localized, so the effect of his "order" was not far-reaching.

Unfortunately, the KKK still exists today.
 
Forrest disbanded the group of which he was a member, that being the Nashville group, headed by John Watson Morton.

But as we've seen, they weren't disbanded, but merely curtailed. His order specifically said they weren't disbanded.

There's no evidence that I know of that he was involved beyond that.

Except for his influence in Alabama that I showed.

The concept quickly spread through the south and also into several northern states, as least Indiana where the klan reached tremendous numbers (I'm no klan scholar, so cut me some slack here, please) and in Georgia, South and North Carolina. The klan grew like a cancer on the land, with no help from Forrest (NB I).

You're talking about post-Reconstruction now, which is outside the purview of this thread.

Regards,
Cash
 
From his character and what I do know about him, I doubt he was a wallflower.

Exactly.

Some of this was peace keeping;

Terrorists aren't peacekeepers.

some of it fear against the possiibility of black uprisings (which I don't believe really happened) and the frustrations by soldiers returning to a devistated land with no legal nor political clout.

They were terrorists who wanted to keep blacks "in their place."


The klan activity on that small scale made sense

Terrorism to maintain **** never makes sense.

and Forrest would have been a logical figurehead

Forrest, who we agree would never be a wallflower, would never be merely a figurehead.

and yes certainly had leadership potential. By no means did he lead a national movement. He was too poor and in too fraile health and temperment to have done much of that.

Maybe in the mid-1870s. Not in 1868.

Regards,
Cash
 
Whoa! Please don't put words in my mouth that might be misconstrued. Forrest did order the KKK to disband; however, his control was localized, so the effect of his "order" was not far-reaching.

Unfortunately, the KKK still exists today.

His order specified that the KKK was not disbanded. And his reach did appear to extend beyond Tennessee.

Regards,
Cash
 
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