Forrest Forrest and Chalmers

Nathanb1

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Silver Patron
Retired Moderator
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Location
Smack dab in the heart of Texas
Expired Image Removed

Would we know who Chalmers was--if not for Forrest?

Often a stormy relationship between THAT GUY and Chalmers--but also one that really worked well when it worked.....General James R. Chalmers is a pretty interesting guy on his own. We have at least one previous thread discussing (somewhat) their relationship, but I'd love for us to discuss it further.

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/why-did-forrest-dislike-john-chalmers.13200/

As we know, Forrest took Chalmers' tent for his brother, who later died. As usual, he did it in his rather imperious way, which ticked off Chalmers.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LL...v=onepage&q=chalmers tent for brother&f=false

Let's look a bit a the standard biography of Chalmers....here's one on the NPS website:

http://www.nps.gov/resources/person.htm?id=61

Here's a report from Shiloh by Chalmers.....

http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields/shiloh/shiloh-history-articles/shiloh-official-report-of.html

And his Ft. Pillow report....

http://www.civilwarhome.com/chalmersftpillowor.htm

I'll be interested to see what the rest of you turn up and what questions we can ask--and answer!
 
Last edited:
In Chalmers' report on Shiloh, think he left out somebody! His initial problem was the one Forrest always encountered - I'm educated and high-toned; you're illiterate and a cracker. And Forrest could be brusque, abrasive and decidedly unpolished - all of which a gentleman of breeding would find offensive. It was somewhat surprising they didn't get into a duel at some point. However, Chalmers came to appreciate Forrest's abilitiles and said that one of the big mistakes his pal Bragg made was promoting Wheeler over Forrest. While he considered Forrest's tactical abilities dicey and mainly the result of talented subordinates, he recognized Forrest was a brilliant strategist. Unlike many of his class and position, Chalmers found it okay to be second banana to somebody who'd been second banana to him. Sometimes, it seems to me, Chalmers gets mixed up with Cheatham. Forrest could tolerate Chalmers and his sometimes snitty gripes, but Cheatham was another story! (With the tent, Chalmers at first thought it was Forrest being high-handed and insulting, but when he found out it was for Aaron, who died, he felt low enough to walk tall under a carpet and not ruffle his hair!)
 
I agree, Diane......most notably the guy who showed up at his tent in the dark to warn that Buell was on the way. :smile:

We're gonna get to Cheatham.....I find his relationships with all these guys really interesting. Again, Hurst does a darned fine job of discussing all this.....
 
I agree, Diane......most notably the guy who showed up at his tent in the dark to warn that Buell was on the way. :smile:

We're gonna get to Cheatham.....I find his relationships with all these guys really interesting. Again, Hurst does a darned fine job of discussing all this.....

Forrest must have felt like Cassandra. We're gonna get the whey beat out of us tomorrow! Aww, gwan back to sleep, you're shell shocked... :O o: Shelby Foote, in his novel Shiloh, has Forrest coming into the tent and cussing a storm while trying to pull off his boots. Don't know if that happened, but the guy sharing his tent said the future cavalry legend was definitely mad enough to stink up the place! :mask:
 
Forrest must have felt like Cassandra. We're gonna get the whey beat out of us tomorrow! Aww, gwan back to sleep, you're shell shocked... :O o: Shelby Foote, in his novel Shiloh, has Forrest coming into the tent and cussing a storm while trying to pull off his boots. Don't know if that happened, but the guy sharing his tent said the future cavalry legend was definitely mad enough to stink up the place! :mask:

Not only Chalmers.....Hardee's comment was absolutely shocking. (NPS Source)

Forrest related the intelligence to Hardee, whom he found spending the night in Prentiss's captured camp. Stating that the Northerners "are receiving reinforcements by the thousands," Forrest warned Hardee, "If this army does not move and attack them between this and daylight, it will be whipped like hell before 10 O'clock tomorrow." Hardee told the colonel to relate this information to Beauregard, but, unfamiliar with the terrain, Forrest could not locate the Confederate commander. Returning to Hardee, Forrest was instructed to keep a close watch and have his troopers ready for action in the morning. Hardee returned to bed. Thus Forrest's important and critical information was lost in the Confederate chain of command.
 
Not only Chalmers.....Hardee's comment was absolutely shocking. (NPS Source)

Forrest wasn't Forrest then - just another civilian volunteer wannabe soldier. He found just about everybody who was going to be somebody that night, telling them all the bad news. The Federals are coming, the Federals are coming...! Chalmers just shrugged and more or less said, well, if you think that better find somebody with more power to move the earth than me. Hardee - yeah, good grief. Maybe he was groggy, or had a shot of whiskey too many, or just took one look at the local yokel and thought guy probably needs straw on one foot and hay on the other to tell them apart. He even turned up Cleburne who believed him but couldn't do a thing about it except keep on smoking his pipe. I think it's possible, though, that had Forrest turned up Beauregard, he might have been listened to if only because Beauregard wanted a reason to boogie out of there - he hadn't wanted to fight there in the first place.
 
In Chalmers' report on Shiloh, think he left out somebody! His initial problem was the one Forrest always encountered - I'm educated and high-toned; you're illiterate and a cracker. And Forrest could be brusque, abrasive and decidedly unpolished - all of which a gentleman of breeding would find offensive. It was somewhat surprising they didn't get into a duel at some point. However, Chalmers came to appreciate Forrest's abilitiles and said that one of the big mistakes his pal Bragg made was promoting Wheeler over Forrest. While he considered Forrest's tactical abilities dicey and mainly the result of talented subordinates, he recognized Forrest was a brilliant strategist. Unlike many of his class and position, Chalmers found it okay to be second banana to somebody who'd been second banana to him. Sometimes, it seems to me, Chalmers gets mixed up with Cheatham. Forrest could tolerate Chalmers and his sometimes snitty gripes, but Cheatham was another story! (With the tent, Chalmers at first thought it was Forrest being high-handed and insulting, but when he found out it was for Aaron, who died, he felt low enough to walk tall under a carpet and not ruffle his hair!)

What do you mean that Chalmers gets mixed up with Cheatham, and that Cheatham was a different story?
 
What do you mean that Chalmers gets mixed up with Cheatham, and that Cheatham was a different story?

Chalmers and Cheatham have somewhat similar names and had their different adventures with Forrest. For example, quite a number of folks think it was Chalmers Forrest threatened to shoot at the Duck River but it was Cheatham.
 
Chalmers and Cheatham have somewhat similar names and had their different adventures with Forrest. For example, quite a number of folks think it was Chalmers Forrest threatened to shoot at the Duck River but it was Cheatham.

One could ask the question... Who did Old Bedford not threaten to shoot? That man was tough as leather and not someone to cross.
 
That encounter at Duck River is indeed interesting, but it's also interesting that Forrest backed down, and Cheatham crossed his men first! I think the refinement idea, regarding men of wealth and manners couldn't be tough as nails or just down-right abrasive is not well thought out. Cheatham is a prime example of the wealthy, well schooled, hot tempered, rough and tough hombre. He was indeed as tough as any man in the Army of Tennessee, and was willing to prove it whenever need be.
 
That encounter at Duck River is indeed interesting, but it's also interesting that Forrest backed down, and Cheatham crossed his men first! I think the refinement idea, regarding men of wealth and manners couldn't be tough as nails or just down-right abrasive is not well thought out. Cheatham is a prime example of the wealthy, well schooled, hot tempered, rough and tough hombre. He was indeed as tough as any man in the Army of Tennessee, and was willing to prove it whenever need be.

Nothing wrong with Cheatham's courage, and his men respected him. It's not certain who crossed first because S D Lee had to resolve it. But Forrest did draw his Navy Colt and approach Cheatham, saying, "If you are a better man than I am, you may cross first." Cheatham's infantry had run into the rear elements of Hood's retreating army, protected by Forrest's exhausted cavalry, and it was VERY tense.

p s
See what I mean about Cheatham and Chalmers getting mixed together easily? Sorry! :redface:
 
I'm enjoying this forum a lot these days. Thanks kids.

Sacrilege it may be here, but I couldn't help but think of the black knight scene in the Holy Grail after reading about the Duck River thing. Love it.

BTW, I went to school with a descendant of Chalmers. Don't remember now anything more than that he had the surname and was very proud of his relationship. Oh, and he was kind of snooty too (it was a boarding school where many deep south folks of a certain caste sent their kids).

Carry on.
 
I'm enjoying this forum a lot these days. Thanks kids.

Sacrilege it may be here, but I couldn't help but think of the black knight scene in the Holy Grail after reading about the Duck River thing. Love it.

BTW, I went to school with a descendant of Chalmers. Don't remember now anything more than that he had the surname and was very proud of his relationship. Oh, and he was kind of snooty too (it was a boarding school where many deep south folks of a certain caste sent their kids).

Carry on.

Thanks John, we're giving it the old Forrest try. And the Black Knight thing....yeah, that's about right. :smile:
 
Munfordville is one of the best stories about Chalmers. It was his old stompin' grounds and when he had to fight Union forces there he was very reluctant to blow all stuffings out of the hometown. His opponent was fierce and determined and John T Wilder. Chalmers was getting kicked by Wilder's fewer numbers until Forrest showed up, sent by Bragg to support Chalmers. He ran Wilder back inside the fort and then Chalmers settled in. Seeing it was a siege, Forrest vamoosed for a more active assignment. Nothing would have deconstructed him faster than sitting around waiting a surrender! Chalmers, however, was patient and kept fighting with Wilder. Finally, Wilder asked to see Chalmers and was escorted to his headquarters blindfolded. "What do you think I should do?" Wilder asked. Chalmers, considerably taken aback, replied, "Well, seeing that you are outnumbered and will only waste the lives of your men, I think you should surrender." "I would like to see for myself if you have all the men you say you have." Again Chalmers' jaw hit the dust. Well, ok. So the two commanders made a tour of the forces. Wilder rubbed his chin. "Yes," he said, "I think you do have all the men you said you had. I suppose I should surrender."

(Forrest and John Wilder would have several encounters in the future - and Forrest was usually the hydrant! At Munford, he just happened to be the dog. Wilder was the only Union commander who consistently handed Forrest his rear and there was no doubt who was doing the handing. :smile coffee: After the war, Forrest and Wilder became great friends and the Forrests stayed for a few months with the Wilders while getting some health treatments. Wilder had opened an inn on the border between Tennessee and North Carolina - and that is RIGHT on the border line - that boasted healing springs. Forrest was at the beginning of his final illness and Wilder thought his spa would be the ticket for his old opponent. It did indeed help some but, unfortunately, nothing could cure Forrest at that point.)
 
Back
Top