1. Welcome to the CivilWarTalk, a forum for questions and discussions about the American Civil War! Become a member today for full access to all of our resources, it's fast, simple, and absolutely free! If you aren't ready for that, try posting your question or comment as a guest!

About the SCV salute to the Confederate flag...

Discussion in 'Campfire Chat - General Discussions' started by Red Harvest, Dec 4, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest 2nd Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,960
    Okay, this one has been bothering me for a few days. I don't have a problem with honoring/remembering Confederate ancestors, but the SCV salute to the Confederate flag goes like this:
    Only if one pretends the "cause" was something other than what it really was (in the words of the 1860/61 Confederates themselves) would this be palatable today. So how do SCV members handle this?

    There are obviously those accept the post-war states rights line. But what about those who don't, do you just skip the second half? How do the other SCV members react to dissent about the cause and unwillingness to salute it?
     

  2. (Membership has it privileges! To remove this ad: Register NOW!)
  3. unionblue

    unionblue Brev. Brig. Gen'l Member of the Year

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    18,469
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Perhaps "the cause" mentioned in the SCV salute had come to mean the right to decide for one's self and to be left alone to do so.

    Unionblue
     
    bama46, FrazierC, Robtweb1 and 3 others like this.
  4. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest 2nd Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,960
    Tyranny is mentioned as well. :O o: However, that isn't the historical cause that the Confederate flag represented. And therein lies the problem.
     
  5. unionblue

    unionblue Brev. Brig. Gen'l Member of the Year

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    18,469
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    We are speaking, I believe, on how modern-day SCV members accept their salute to the Confederate flag.

    "Historical cause(s)" may have little to do with a modern-day perspective.

    Unionblue
     
    bama46 likes this.
  6. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest 2nd Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,960
    Perhaps, but how are they rationalizing their departure from the "cause" their ancestors fought for? If one is only approaching it from a modern perspective then the SCV is simply a political organization (and, no, I don't believe that is the case...although some seem to be determined to make it so.)

    I can't speak for SCV members/former members as to how they see their modern day salute to the Confederate flag. I don't even know if they all subscribe to it. Hence, my question.

    From what I've seen, people are a continuum rather than a monolith. So how do SCV or former SCV members approach the salute to the cause today? I might disagree with them, but I'm interested in their view of the salute and its meaning relative to the historical cause. It would pose a major obstacle to me, how do they approach it?

    To give a semi-personal example: when I first read a biography of "that guy" NBF my impression was two fold--I recognized my own tendencies in him (quick temper, aggressive action, grasp of key points that often elude others, fearlessness when the stuff hits the fan, sense of fair play, not willing to yield, harsh tone toward superiors/others), but I also rejected his political leanings/cause. Isn't hard for me to look like him...often wear my beard/mustache in the same style. I would love to see a proper movie done of the guy as he is simultaneously a hero and villain of epic proportions. I can both appreciate his genius and mindset, and at the same time reject portions of it.
     
    James B White likes this.
  7. unionblue

    unionblue Brev. Brig. Gen'l Member of the Year

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    18,469
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    My own opinion is that the majority of the SCV membership seem to take the charge of preserving the memory of the Confederate soldier as a serious obligation without to much concern for the 'lost cause' or the salute to the Confederate flag. They seem to me to honestly be trying to honor the individual soldier and his acts during that long-ago war without the political hash that accompanies such honoring.

    In other words, the words and actions they take to honor those men have little impact on the world today, no more than those who recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the Christian Flag impact on the nation at large. It is more ritual than history, more rote than bond.

    Their choice, in other words.

    IMO,
    Unionblue
     
  8. James B White

    James B White 1st Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,069
    How... odd. I was considering joining a different local history/heritage group (not SCV or even Confederate), but decided not to, based on a few words of the pledge, because I couldn't honestly swear to it even though I agreed with the actual overall mission of the organization. If it had just been a few lines buried in a mission statement somewhere that I personally didn't need to agree to, no big deal, but when I would have had to say it, personally, under oath, nope.

    For so much being made of honor, duty, one's word being one's bond, and all the "old south" traditions, I'm surprised that a majority of people would take a pledge as an empty ritual.
     
    Red Harvest likes this.
  9. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest 2nd Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,960
    James,

    It sounds like you understand the dilemna first hand. I would be in the same situation as yourself it appears, balking at an oath. Wouldn't be the first time I've objected to such because of some particular.

    I am hoping for some SCV member/former member input. While I anticipate some flames, I also expect some deeper discussion. There isn't any "right" answer since it is a matter of how folks perceive the salute and "cause."
     
  10. unionblue

    unionblue Brev. Brig. Gen'l Member of the Year

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    Messages:
    18,469
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Again, it appears to me, in my own view, that there are those who simply recite words without really understanding their meaning.

    Sincerely,
    Unionblue
     
  11. CSA Today

    CSA Today Major

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2011
    Messages:
    8,923
    Location:
    Laurinburg NC
    Succinctly put, it would to imagine SCV members being members for long if they didn’t support the charge to defend the good name of the “Cause” as given to them by UCV head Lt. Gen. Stephen D. Lee in 1906.

    "To you, Sons of Confederate Veterans, we submit the vindication of the Cause for which we fought; to your strength will be given the defense of the Confederate soldier's good name, the guardianship of his history, the emulation of his virtues, the perpetuation of those principles he loved and which made him glorious and which you also cherish. Remember, it is your duty to see that the true history of the South is presented to future generations."

    Lt. Gen. Stephen D. Lee, Commander General, United Confederate Veterans, 1906
     
    Robtweb1, Rebtracker and shanniereb like this.
  12. CSA Today

    CSA Today Major

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2011
    Messages:
    8,923
    Location:
    Laurinburg NC
    What has the SCV ever said or done to give you that strange idea?

    "To you, Sons of Confederate Veterans, we submit the vindication of the Cause for which we fought; to your strength will be given the defense of the Confederate soldier's good name, the guardianship of his history, the emulation of his virtues, the perpetuation of those principles he loved and which made him glorious and which you also cherish. Remember, it is your duty to see that the true history of the South is presented to future generations."

    Lt. Gen. Stephen D. Lee, Commander General, United Confederate Veterans, 1906

     
  13. JPK Huson 1863

    JPK Huson 1863 Captain Forum Host

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2012
    Messages:
    6,418
    Location:
    Central Pennsylvania
    Yes, but a public, en mass pledge and a personal, sworn oath are different. I'd rather not get down to definitions since it's the kind of pendantic stuff which goes off onto tangents which kills a thread, they just plain are. These men reciting a pledge which has meaning to them are not being sworn into Confederate service, on an oath of fealty- I also think they're honoring History. Inevitably there are probably some members who chose to interpret the words of that pledge as every bit as revisionist and Lost Cause-ist ( It could be a word! ) as one would 'fear', have to guess it's both a fraction of members and a silent, silent fraction. Once again extremist, there's simply nothing one could do about these. It's like getting rid of the Pledge of Allegiance because of the extremists on a whole 'nother front who dislike our nations's children apparently being exposed to the word ' God '. It's awfully irritating when theirs is the voice which gets heard- my 4 encompass part of the whole and I like the idea of reminding them every morning why they get to live in this country.

    My favorite 'law' and consequently one of the only things I remember from Chem and Bio is The Law of Entropy, whereby basically what is one 'thing' slowlyyy is pulled by forces until it becomes somewhere in the middle. ( It's really thermodynamics, before anyone tells me it doesn't apply, I know. ) TOO simplistic, but translated in my perspective black would end up gray because white is the other extreme, not just cold and hot to warm. ( It's my favorite also because it also describes my house after I've cleaned it..... . All that is tidy slowly unravels. ) The thing is, what an incredibly boring, gray blob of a world if we don't have groups keeping their part of History alive. I don't mean to be argumentative, but if we keep picking apart the bits we object to on the grounds the kooks could make poor use of them ( and we know with 100% certainty of course they will ), it's going to be not only a boring world but an historically inaccurate one.
     
    Lee, Nathanb1 and RNMCSA like this.
  14. shanniereb

    shanniereb Sergeant Major

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,766
    Location:
    Mt. Croghan South Carolina
    I am joining the UCV and the charge of the guardianship of his history is why I am joining. To me "the cause" in this pledge is just that!
     
    Rebtracker and CSA Today like this.
  15. James B White

    James B White 1st Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,069
    Would the SCV support the creation of a separate nation based on the Confederate Constitution tomorrow, if they could wave a magic wand and make it happen? That seems about as basic to the cause as one can get.

    But that means one has to swallow Article 1 Section 9,4: "No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."

    One could argue that it's moot today, since no living slaves exist in the former slave states and none could be imported from any other country. But it would be constitutional to pass some of the old laws, such as those which allowed free black criminals to be sold into slavery to pay the cost of their imprisonment, or declaring the offspring of a female slave to also be a slave for life. Sell one female criminal into slavery, let her have kids, and off we go again.

    Edited to add: Or is the "cause" supposed to be "the cause for which we fought [post-war]," meaning the whole lost cause mythos that veterans tried to promote in the 1880s-1910s, later in their lives, as they were passing the torch onto their sons? Oh wow. Different meaning entirely than the cause for which they fought in 1861. Casts a whole 'nuther light on the subject.
     
    Red Harvest likes this.
  16. James B White

    James B White 1st Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    4,069
    How? I don't see that my word should mean any more or less, regardless whether someone beside me happens to be saying the same thing at the same time, or how many people are listening.

    I'm one of those extremists. It's not a matter of exposing people to the word "God." Anyone else can pledge whatever they want, but I balk if someone expects me to pledge something that I can't in good conscience. But I guess it goes back to the first sentence quoted above. I don't see a difference between publicly or privately making a solemn statement, promise, oath, pledge, etc.

    If the goal is to have as many people as possible recite a pledge together, then it seems to me that there are only two choices: make the pledge as agreeable to as many people as possible, or teach people that pledges in groups don't mean anything. I prefer the former rather than the latter.

    But it may be the same attitude which encourages pledges like the SCV one. Oh, it doesn't really matter, don't pick it apart, just say it to go along with the group--so people do.
     
  17. CSA Today

    CSA Today Major

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2011
    Messages:
    8,923
    Location:
    Laurinburg NC
    The SCV, like the NAACP, is a tax-exempt non-profit 501(C3) organization and as such prohibited from in engaging in anything of a modern political nature as a function of the organization.
    Any vote on secession by SCV members would have to be outside the SCV to not jeopardize the organization’s tax status. I am not aware of such a secession poll of SCV members-- the SCV headquarters would certainly oppose if confined to only SCV members.

    “No country ever had truer sons, No people-bolder defenders, No principle – purer victims”
    Inscribed on the Confederate Monument in front of the Marlboro County Court House in Bennettsville, South Carolina
     
  18. Borderruffian

    Borderruffian 2nd Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    3,301
    Location:
    Gone to Brush
    We also say the Pledge of Alligience, and some Camps Salute their State Flag, if a salute exists for that flag. Other than that I can see how this thread will go and the agenda that was proffered in the OP, having no reason or inclination to get in the same old purse swinging contest, I bid you adieu.
     
  19. CMWinkler

    CMWinkler Brigadier General Moderator Forum Host

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    8,260
    Location:
    Middle Tennessee
    I'm curious, Red, as to whom appointed you to be arbiter of the meaning of the Confederate flag?
     
    bama46 and CSA Expat like this.
  20. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest 2nd Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,960
    Don't look at me, I didn't write that salute, somebody affiliated with the SCV did. "Undying devotion to the cause
    For which it stands." The cause for which it stands was clearly established by folks in 1860/1861, and was written into their constitution.
     
  21. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest 2nd Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,960
    That's a very good point. Presumably the Confederate Constitution would also not have the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments as those were all counter to cause.

    If the cause for which the Confederate flag stands isn't to be found in the Confederate Constitution, then where exactly is it?
     

(Membership has it privileges! To remove this ad: Register NOW!)
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page