A Primer on Civil War Pocket Watches

Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
I have been collecting, researching and writing about early American pocket watches for thirty five years and I have recently developed a special interest in pocket watches with documented CW provenances, also called "named Civil War" watches. For those interested, as I am, in named CW timepieces that were carried by combatants or other individuals of significance during the American Civil War, the following is offered as a brief primer on how to assess the likelihood that an item offered for sale is authentic. What follows is not intended to distill all of my experience on the subject into a single post. Rather, it provides only some useful guidelines, which in no instance should be considered a sufficient substitute for common sense or caution. Excluded from this discussion are watches, even those with documented provenances, that either were made, or which came into the possession of an individual of historical significance after their role in the CW had ended. Hence, only those watches are covered that were made, or which could have been made (if the exact production date cannot be established), either before, during, or at the immediate conclusion of the CW.

First, a word about "originality." Strictly speaking, originality, or authenticity, can only be disproven, never proven. Nevertheless, there are CW period timepieces the totality of whose characteristics afford ample confidence that the provenance indicated on its engraving is very likely authentic, even without a diary entry or photographic evidence to confirm it. The primer provided below is intended to give kindred spirits to my own who cherish these artifacts as I do the tools to make informed judgments concerning authenticity.

Second, a word about basic terminology. The phrase "Civil War pocket watch" can be remarkably elastic, especially on Ebay, so let me define the term. The tightest definition of a "Civil War watch," and the one I prefer, is a watch, whether American or foreign, for which there is documentary evidence (on the watch itself, or elsewhere) that it was owned by a CW combatant or other individual of CW significance during the CW. (Obviously, direct evidence that a timepiece actually was carried by such an individual during the CW makes a watch especially desirable.) A looser and more commonly used definition of a CW watch is: a watch that was made during or shortly before the CW, and is of a make and model, usually American, that was known to have been popular among CW soldiers. A list of such makes and models is given below. The term "CW watch" is also commonly applied, mostly by sellers, and inappropriately in my view, to any watch of indeterminate age whose features are claimed to be compatible with the general characteristics of watches that were known to have been manufactured and sold in the approximate period of the CW. This last, somewhat nebulous category of watches may be satisfactory for reenactment purposes, especially if it is a foreign watch for a confederate impression. However, the following discussion will be restricted to the second definition for American watches, and to only the first, most restrictive definition for foreign made watches. (Note: Some foreign movements sold in the US were also cased in the US.)

Domestic Versus Foreign Timepieces: CW timepieces could be of American, English, or Swiss make (all others, e.g., French watches, being quite scarce). For obvious reasons, watches carried by confederate soldiers, especially those purchased after 1861, are especially likely to have been made abroad. Persons interested in acquiring authentic CW timepieces, whether "named" or otherwise, should be aware that the authenticity issues are each a bit different with American, than with English, than with other European (i.e., Swiss) made watches. So I'll begin with a few remarks that apply to both domestic and foreign made CW watches. Then I'll deal with some unique aspects of American watches bearing on authenticity, and finally I'll address some issues unique to English, and to Swiss watches in turn.

Winding and Setting: With only very rare exception, all CW period watches were wound and set with a key. While the first stem winding patent (an English one) dates to 1820, the first American stem winding watches reached the market in 1867-68. European keyless watches were extremely rare in the US market up to the CW. English watches were predominantly wound from the rear and set from the front (i.e., from the dial side). American watches were all wound from the rear as well. Similarly, the single most popular American watch model of the period, and the most commonly seen today, is the Waltham Model 1857, which is set from the dial side. However, all other American watch models of the period (see list below) are set from the rear.

Watch Movement Finish and Details: Authentic CW period watches will have gilded brass plates and polished and/or blued steelwork. Nickel finish debuted on American watch plates a few years after the CW, and did not become common until the mid 1870's at the earliest. Nickel plates were used by a few better Swiss makers before 1865, but they were uncommon. If a spiral hairspring on an otherwise appropriate looking movement is not blued, it is a much later replacement. Note that there were no "railroad watches" during the CW, though a few English watches had been purchased by American railroads for their employees' use. The first American watches manufactured to order for a RR company were made in 1866. The first American watches specifically designed and advertised for RR service were made in 1870. However, watches with all the characteristics that modern collectors have come to associate with "RR watches" (e.g., screwed back and bezel cases, lever setting, double sunk dials with bold, upright Arabic numerals, 17 or more jewels, 5 or more positional adjustments, etcetera) did not exist until the 1890's.

Case Metal: Nearly all original pre-CW and CW watch cases relevant here were silver or gold. American silver cases were most often "coin silver," which is 90% silver and 10% copper. English silver cases, which were hallmarked, were Sterling silver, which is 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper. Swiss made silver cases varied widely in composition and were often of inferior quality with plated brass dust covers. American gold cases were most often nominally 18 karat, but could test as low as 16K. 14K and 12K American cases were considerably less common in the CW period, but did exist. English gold cases, always hallmarked, could be 9K, 15K, 18K, or 22K, and were typically well made, regardless of the gold purity. "Silveroid," (also called "silverode") a deliberately misleading American watch trade term for a nickel alloy containing no silver whatsoever, were known as "albata" during the CW, but few period examples survive today. The patent for "gold filling," a process in which two thin sheets of 14 karat or 10 karat gold are roll bonded to a thick brass substrate, slightly pre-dates the CW. However, gold filling was rare before 1870.

Case Styles: There are two basic styles of pocket watch case: "hunting," and open face. Hunting cases, which were the most popular CW style, have a front cover that is opened by pushing on a spring-loaded button built into the pendant. (Never snap the front lid of a hunting case shut, lest the hard steel of the locking spring abrade the lip of the soft precious metal lid. Always depress the pusher before closing the case, then release the pusher once it is closed.) However, open face cases, which usually have thicker glass crystals than hunting case watches, also were used in the CW period. Simulated "box-hinged" cases, and multi-color gold cases were both creatures of the 1880's and 1890's, and have nothing to do with the CW.

Case Construction: CW period watch cases will have both inner and outer rear lids. The inner rear lid, also called a "dust cover," or "cuvette," will have at least one key hole for winding, and depending on the model, often a second hole (nearly always in the center) for setting. American and Swiss watches will have hinged inner rear lids, which can be swung up to access the movement. On English watch cases, the inner rear lid usually will be fixed in position, and the movement will be attached to the case by a hinge. One accesses the movement in an English "swing-out case" by depressing a catch on the dial side at 6 o'clock and rotating the movement up out of the case. For this reason, English watch movements will have integral , gilded brass dust covers. CW period cases typically have the hinges for the rear lid offset from, rather than aligned with those for the front lid.

Case Originality: The cases of CW watches typically offer many clues to their likely originality to the movements they house. First, American and Swiss movements will be secured to their cases by case screws, which leave characteristic semicircular marks on the lip of a case adjacent to the movement. Any extraneous case screw marks are a clear sign that other movements have been in that case. Make sure that all parts of the case on which a serial number appears have the same serial number. (Note: movement and case serial numbers are usually not the same, especially on American and Swiss watches. This is OK. Many Swiss watches of the period lack serial numbers.) Check to see that the movement is a good fit in its case, both horizontally and vertically; that there is no visible gap between the movement and the case; that the case screws have a secure purchase on the case lip without need of spacers underneath; and that the dial has not been ground down along the edge, nor the movement locating pin removed to make it fit the current case. Dust covers in particular are a special treasure trove of originality clues. On American watchcases, original key holes should have engraved borders around them, and they should be well centered above their winding arbors. Look closely to be sure that there are no filled holes in the dust cover, and that no existing hole obliterates any part of the serial number, if any, on the underside of the dust cover.

Watch Dials and Hands: Authentic watch dials of the CW period were oven fired, hand painted ceramic with copper backings. They were nearly all either flat, or "single sunk," meaning that the seconds bit was a separate disk that was cemented slightly below the plane of the main dial. (The only double sunk dials of the period appear on a small number of the highest grade Waltham Model 1859 movements, as per the discussion below.) Painted metal dials came much later. Roman numerals greatly predominated in the CW period, although Arabic numeral dials were known. Hand styles varied quite a bit, though spade hands, often with polished tips and bosses, were the most common style.

American CW Watches: The two most important things to know about American CW watches are:

1) With only rare exceptions, such watches were manufactured by what were then state-of-the-art mass production methods based on standard models and designs. (To be clear, the production methods were state of the art. The watches mostly were not. American production methods employed automatic machinery to a hithertofore unprecedented degree, and emulated the interchangeable parts manufacturing practices pioneered by the Springfield Armory [although full interchangeability in the finer parts of watches would not be achieved until several decades after the CW].) Conversely. contemporary English and Swiss watches were still being made by decentralized, semi-industrial (craft) methods, and consequently exhibited much less standardization.

2) American watch movements and the cases made for a particular watch model were interchangeable by design. (This was not true of contemporary foreign watches.) This fact enabled purveyors of American watches to offer customers greater choice and variety in movement and case combinations with a smaller inventory. However, it also poses some unique issues for modern collectors and historians attempting to assess authenticity. To exacerbate this problem, most American watches were not cased in the watch factory (there are important exceptions), and matching movement and case serial numbers are very much the fortunate exception, rather than the rule.

The above mentioned difficulty is somewhat mitigated by the fact that most of the CW era factory production records for the two American watch manufacturers then active still exist. This fact makes it possible to establish the date of manufacture of at least the movement of an American watch, usually to within the month, if not even to the actual day! The same is not true of foreign watch movements. (However, as discussed subsequently, English watch cases were date marked.) To find the production date of a Waltham watch movement, go here:

http://www.nawcc-info.org/walthamdb/LookupSN.asp

The two US makers active during the CW were the American Watch Company of Waltham, Massachusetts [henceforth abbreviated herein as AWCo]; and E. Howard & Company of Boston [henceforth EH&Co]. The AWCo and predecessors made some of their own watchcases. EH&Co did not. (Watchcases for Howard movements marked "EH&Co" were made to order by various case makers for the Howard sales offices in Boston or NY City. They were not made in the Howard factory.) Early cases made in Waltham's own case department, circa 1859-61, are marked "A.T.& Co," on the inside of the outer rear lid. Later Waltham cases are marked "American Watch Company," or just "A. W. Co." Boston Watch Company cases (which are scarce in silver, and rare in gold), are marked "B.W. Co." This marking should not to be confused with that found on cases made by the Brooklyn Watch Case Co., which were marked "B.W.C. Co."

American Watch Co. Watches: The AWCo evolved out of a succession of short-lived firms, the most significant of which were the Boston Watch Company [BWCo, approximately 1854 to mid 1857] and Appleton, Tracy & Company [AT&Co., late 1857 to 1859]. With one minor exception, each succeeding company in the Waltham lineage began its serial numbers where the previous firm had ended. But just to confuse matters, the AWCo continued to use the AT&Co name as a grade designation on many of its watches throughout the CW. Any watch made by the AWCo or one of its several predecessors with a serial number below approximately 150,000 might have been made prior to April, 1865.

The following men’s watch models were manufactured by the Waltham family of companies during and/or prior to the Civil War:

Model 1857 (18 Size full plate, wound from rear, set from front) – Waltham’s most copiously produced model
Model 1859 “thin model” (18 Size ¾ plate, wound from rear, set from rear)
20 Size Keywind Model (20 Size ¾ plate, wound from rear, set from rear)
16 Size Keywind Model (16 Size ¾ plate, wound from rear, set from rear)

Illustrative examples of these Waltham watch models can be found here:

http://www.awco.org/Seminar2002/

The AWCo used various grade designations on its watches. The grade of a watch was announced by the details of the engraving on the watch plate, and not by the manner in which the dial was signed. In descending order of quality, Waltham’s CW era grades were:

“American Watch Company*” (where the word “American” is completely spelled out)
“Appleton, Tracy & Company” (later renamed the “Amn. Watch Co.” grade)
“P. S. Bartlett”
“Wm. Ellery”
“Home Watch Co.” (not introduced until 1866)

* Except for one known example, Model 1857 full plate movements were never made in this highest grade.

Waltham watches of the two highest grades were most likely to have been found in an officer’s pocket. The three lower grades were the most popular among enlisted men. Most products of the AWCo’s most important predecessor, the Boston Watch Company, were engraved “Dennison, Howard & Davis,” but had unsigned dials.

E. Howard & Co. Watches: The other US watch making firm active during the CW, E. Howard & Company, produced relatively small numbers of watches (by Waltham’s lights) for the high end of the luxury market. The Howard firm’s founder, Edward Howard, had one leg in the old world and one in the new, combining in his operations modern manufacturing notions with copious amounts of skilled, traditional craftsmanship. Consequently, Howard’s early products were far less standardized than contemporary Waltham watches, and exhibited greater individual character. Until yours truly wrote a series of articles and a book on the subject, which were published by the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors (NAWCC) between 1993 and 2005, it was difficult to obtain reliable information about Howard watches. (The Howard factory watch movement production records first became available for study, at the Smithsonian American History Archives Center, in 2001.) These factors, combined with the association of the Howard name with the luxury market, their scarcity, and their unique casing requirements, have created a mystique around early Howard watches, and has magnified their appeal among collectors. The Howard firm, which also claimed succession to the Boston Watch Company, did business for a short time under the name “Howard & Rice,” before beginning to sign their watches “E. Howard & Co.” in late 1858. The movements made by this prestigious clock company often cost more than the gold cases that housed them. Thus Howard watches would have been carried by men of means, and among CW combatants, that most often meant officers.

Howard watches with movement serial numbers below about 6,000 could have seen service in the CW. (Howard keywind watches occasionally are found with matching movement and case serial numbers.) The Howard firm did not name its watch models as the Waltham firm did, nor did it designate formal grades for its movement quality levels in the CW period. However, modern collectors have devised their own model nomenclatures. In the older naming convention, these would be the Howard Series I, II, and III. In the newer naming convention, they would be the Models 1858 Types A through E, and Type O divided plate keywinds; and the Model 1862 ¾ plate. All these models were “N Size,” which were slightly larger than 19 Size, and all were key wound and set from the rear. The same website previously cited for the Waltham watch models shows examples of these EH&Co models. For a more detailed discussion of Howard watch models, and a survey of Howard movement features and quality levels, go here:

http://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?
title=E_Howard_and_Co&s=821bf73d942cc474f54ff9af17b76927

Early Howard watch production was chaotic, and movements were not completed or sold in strict serial order. To find when a particular Howard watch movement was finished, go here:

https://sites.google.com/site/ehowardwatch/

Note: Originally cased Howard keywind watches are scarce, and those with bona fide CW provenances are great rarities.

Authenticity Issues with Foreign Watches: Owing to secessionist passions and the general disruption of north-south commerce, it is a more than reasonable presumption that watches purchased within the changing borders of the confederacy after 1861 would have been increasingly likely over time to have been of foreign origin. Among foreign watches, English products probably enjoyed the best overall reputation. (The Swiss made quite a few extremely fine watches during the CW period, but relatively few of them seem to have found their way to America.) The best English watches mostly were made in London, whereas most English exports to the US came out of Liverpool or Coventry. Nevertheless, in an effort to cash in on the superior reputation of English watches in the US, some Swiss makers even misrepresented their own products as British. (The various watchmakers of the Tobias family, for example, ware favorite subjects of Swiss counterfeiters.)

English Watches: The mercury vapor gilding process used on English watch plates (while dangerous and unhealthful to workers) produced a generally superior finish to the cyanide bath electro-gilding (which was not as dangerous and unhealthful) on American and Swiss watches. The overall finishing standards of English watches made for the US market were perhaps not as high as English finishing standards for the domestic English and European markets, but were still better than the finish most often found on Swiss export watches, and were at least comparable to most American watches. Most English watches also employed fusees. A fusee is a conical pulley with a chain wrapped around it. Its purpose is to equalize the torque applied to the wheel train by the mainspring over the watch's running period in order to improve "isochronism," which is the quality of uniform timekeeping accuracy over the running period. The fusee was an expensive feature requiring skilled, specialized labor to produce that was eschewed by both American and most Swiss makers.

Owing to the decentralized, cottage nature of English watchmaking in the mid-nineteenth century, little interchangeability exists among English watch movements and cases of the CW period. Most of the time, this fact makes it much easier to determine whether a particular English watch case is original to a particular English movement. And that is a very handy fact indeed, because all English silver and gold cases carried four marks stamped or incused into their surfaces: A maker's mark; an assay mark, which testifies to the purity of the metal; a town mark, which states where the case was assayed (London, Chester, or Birmingham for watch cases); and most importantly for authenticity determinations, a date mark specifying the year that the case was assayed. A date mark is a letter raised up from within an incused field, and both the font of the letter and the shape of the field are significant in determining the date to which a letter refers (Readers should beware, however, that the date mark usually did not change on January 1 of the year in question. Also, London, Chester and Birmingham date marks are not the same.) The mark for Sterling silver is a lion passant, and that for gold is a crown accompanied by either a karat marking or a millesimal purity fraction. The definitive reference on English watch cases is, "British Watchcase Gold & Silver Marks, 1870, to 1970," an NAWCC publication by Philip Priestley which contains much information relevant to the Civil War period. A quick guide to English date marks can be found here:

http://www.silvercollection.it/englishsilverhallmarks.html

The hallmark, assay mark and date mark will be stamped on the interior case surfaces. The maker's mark, two initials, will often be found on the exterior of the case near the pendant.

Watch movement production data do exist for a few better known English makers, but by and large, English movement and case serial numbers, which often match, cannot establish a production date. This is especially so, since many English watches made for the US market were private label products which showed only the American retailer’s name. One can, however, find many if not most mid-nineteenth century English watchmakers in various well known lists, such as “Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the World,” by G. H. Baillie. These sources can provide the approximate (or even the exact) beginning and end dates for a watchmaking enterprise’s time in business. Priestley’s text previously mentioned has some of this same kind of information for English case makers. One prestigious English watch maker, Charles Frodsham of London, employed a letter-coded date on many of his watch dials, that can establish the date of movement manufacture to compare with the date mark on the case. However, the date mark on the case of an English watch is usually the single most valuable datum informing the likelihood that an English watch was available for use during the CW.

Swiss Watches: Swiss watches from the CW period are the toughest to authenticate, because production data for most Swiss makers is scarce or entirely lacking, and the case markings, which often don't carry serial numbers, offer no solid clues to their production dates. The most common Swiss watch movement style exported to the US during the Civil War was the Lepine Calibre Type 5, characterized by three separate, roughly parallel "finger" bridges for the train wheels. Experts on Swiss watch products may be able to infer approximate production dates from the design and finishing features of movements, and in some instances, the maker of an unsigned movement. However, most often one is left with very little to provide the confidence in the provenance of a Swiss watch that CW relic collectors seek. Therefore my own advice is to proceed with extreme caution when considering a Swiss watch with an apparent CW provenance, and to take the increased uncertainty associated with the pedigree into consideration when estimating value.

As well as my book, featured below, readers may also find the following slide presentation of interest:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/slide-presentation-on-collecting-civil-war-watches.126567/
Edited.
 
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Outstanding write! Thank you for the information. I have and sometimes wear an old
key wind, key set pocket watch(P.S. Bartlett) from the American Watch Company, (Waltham) and
when you carry one of those big watches around all day...you know it is there because you can feel it! Mine is from a little later, about 1880.

My first key wind watch was from 1876, and came from a estate auction at an old farm, and
it did not work, and had a coin silver case. I showed it to a friend of mine who cleaned old
watches, and he took out his pocket knife, and adjusted it as we talked and he got it to
work, and he told me that it had to be cleaned and oiled, and I got him to do it, and
a week later I got it back, and paid him a small fee, and I had a working antique watch,
also a P.S. Bartlett. I was hooked.
 
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My first watch was inherited from my late uncle, by way of my grandmother and my mother. Oddly enough, it was a gold, zero size ladies pendant watch (typically worn around the neck). The family lore passed down with the watch was that it was given to my uncle by "a female admirer!" Alas, I did not inherit the charm genes along with the watch.
 
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Outstanding write up. I picked up an American Watch Company Hunting style, key wind,Gold, size 20. From the link you provided, I now know I have one of the Nashua watches. Mine was made in New York. It is a hefty solid watch which kept spot on time for about three months, then would only run while laying flat. Probably just needs a minor tweak and clean, but I have not had a chance to track down a good watch repair guy in the DC area. I like to think I got a good deal on the watch as I paid about $40 for the watch and key. No doubt, it will cost five times that to get it running full speed again.
 
Outstanding write up. I picked up an American Watch Company Hunting style, key wind,Gold, size 20. From the link you provided, I now know I have one of the Nashua watches. Mine was made in New York. It is a hefty solid watch which kept spot on time for about three months, then would only run while laying flat. Probably just needs a minor tweak and clean, but I have not had a chance to track down a good watch repair guy in the DC area. I like to think I got a good deal on the watch as I paid about $40 for the watch and key. No doubt, it will cost five times that to get it running full speed again.

Thank you for the kind words, Dave. $40 for a gold 20KW. You got quite a bargain! A decent original gold case for a Model 20KW is probably worth a few thousand dollars today even without a movement in it. Yes, the 20KW was the model designed and originated at the short-lived and undercapitalized Nashua Watch Company, which was reabsorbed into the AWCo in 1862. Nashua itself finished and signed likely less than 200 of them. A close friend of mine just bought one, a 15 jewel example, at auction late last year for about $25,000. A somewhat greater number of Model 20KW movements were finished at Waltham from Nashua Watch Co. material. These are all top grade, 19 jewel movements signed "American Watch Company" on the plates with serial numbers in the 50,xxx range. Those movements that were actually assembled from left over Nashua material also carry the original Nashua assembly numbers on the pillar plate underneath the dial. These are three-digit numbers. (Nashua serial numbers ran from 1,001 up to perhaps 1,300.) The same friend bought one of those watches in the same auction for around $15,000. All other 20KW movements, including all the lower grade examples, were assembled from parts made at Waltham using the Nashua machinery. They are all desirable and collectable, especially in original cases.

An AT&Co. Grade 20KW example in a gold case with a CW provenance sold on Ebay a few years ago for over $10,000:

http://www.majorjonathanladd.com/watch.html

I was the back bidder. What the winning bidder knew, and I did not, was that information existed that may place the controversial person to whom the watch was presented at President Lincoln's bedside at the time of his death! That was a fish that got away! Grrr! :cry:
 
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Outstanding write up. I picked up an American Watch Company Hunting style, key wind,Gold, size 20. From the link you provided, I now know I have one of the Nashua watches. Mine was made in New York. It is a hefty solid watch which kept spot on time for about three months, then would only run while laying flat. Probably just needs a minor tweak and clean, but I have not had a chance to track down a good watch repair guy in the DC area. I like to think I got a good deal on the watch as I paid about $40 for the watch and key. No doubt, it will cost five times that to get it running full speed again.
I'm amazed, too,Dave! $40?!! I collect "railroad grade" pocket watches, and never (especially Howards, or the A. Lincoln movement in one of my hunters, or "Father Time" movements)--never paid less than $400--and those are the "cheaper ones).
 
Thank you for the kind words, Dave. $40 for a gold 20KW. You got quite a bargain! A decent original gold case for a Model 20KW is probably worth a few thousand dollars today even without a movement in it. Yes, the 20KW was the model designed and originated at the short-lived and undercapitalized Nashua Watch Company, which was reabsorbed into the AWCo in 1862. Nashua itself finished and signed likely less than 200 of them. A close friend of mine just bought one, a 15 jewel example, at auction late last year for about $25,000. A somewhat greater number of Model 20KW movements were finished at Waltham from Nashua Watch Co. material. These are all top grade, 19 jewel movements signed "American Watch Company" on the plates with serial numbers in the 50,xxx range. Those movements that were actually assembled from left over Nashua material also carry the original Nashua assembly numbers on the pillar plate underneath the dial. These are three-digit numbers. (Nashua serial numbers ran from 1,001 up to perhaps 1,300.) The same friend bought one of those watches in the same auction for around $15,000. All other 20KW movements, including all the lower grade examples, were assembled from parts made at Waltham using the Nashua machinery. They are all desirable and collectable, especially in original cases.

An AT&Co. Grade 20KW example in a gold case with a CW provenance sold on Ebay a few years ago for over $10,000:

http://www.majorjonathanladd.com/watch.html

I was the back bidder. What the winning bidder knew, and I did not, was that information existed that may place the controversial person to whom the watch was presented at President Lincoln's bedside at the time of his death! That was a fish that got away! Grrr! :cry:
Good googley moogley. My wife picked it up for me as a birthday present, since I had bid on a few 1870-1880 watches and lost those bids. She was up looking at lace one morning and noticed the watch, with no information available, other than the Hunting case and key. When the watch arrived, she had to go back to the seller for the key, which he failed to include, which took about a month to get. No idea why the seller had no information on the watch as American Watch Company NY is clear as day when you open the back of the case.

This thread prompted me to find a watch repairman, locally. Found an old guy (Lori said he might have assembled the watch originally) less than a mile from my house. Now I might be afraid to tote it around to reenactments.
 
Good googley moogley. My wife picked it up for me as a birthday present, since I had bid on a few 1870-1880 watches and lost those bids. She was up looking at lace one morning and noticed the watch, with no information available, other than the Hunting case and key. When the watch arrived, she had to go back to the seller for the key, which he failed to include, which took about a month to get. No idea why the seller had no information on the watch as American Watch Company NY is clear as day when you open the back of the case.

This thread prompted me to find a watch repairman, locally. Found an old guy (Lori said he might have assembled the watch originally) less than a mile from my house. Now I might be afraid to tote it around to reenactments.
I would wear it--mine all sit in their individual domes throughout the house. I wind them maybe once every 2 months, as there are so many, but "life's too short"-I'd use it!
 
Good googley moogley. My wife picked it up for me as a birthday present, since I had bid on a few 1870-1880 watches and lost those bids. She was up looking at lace one morning and noticed the watch, with no information available, other than the Hunting case and key. When the watch arrived, she had to go back to the seller for the key, which he failed to include, which took about a month to get. No idea why the seller had no information on the watch as American Watch Company NY is clear as day when you open the back of the case.

This thread prompted me to find a watch repairman, locally. Found an old guy (Lori said he might have assembled the watch originally) less than a mile from my house. Now I might be afraid to tote it around to reenactments.

Dave, If the watch runs while laying flat (I am assuming face up, but not face down?) and stops when on its side, the first thing I would suspect is a broken pivot, probably the upper one, on your balance staff. If your local repairman doesn't work out, PM me. I do not repivot balance staffs myself, but I know good people who do.
 
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Dave, If the watch runs while laying flat (I am assuming face up, but not face down?) and stops when on its side, the first thing I would suspect is a broken pivot, probably the upper one, on your balance staff. If your local repairman doesn't work out, PM me. I do not repivot balance staffs myself, but I know good people who do.
Thank you. The watch ran fine for three months, then seemed to stick when it hit the 10 second mark on the sweep hand. When laid down, face up, it ran fine for another three or four months then quit altogether, again at the 10 second mark on the sweep hand.

A correction: I did check with my wife, who confirmed that I was wrong on my initial price, it was $81 with shipping. Bidding started at $42. She said someone drove the price up the last few minutes.

I knew there was a 42 in there somewhere.
 
Very interesting thread. Thanks so much for posting.

The oldest pocket watch I have was originally my grandfather's. It was made by the Illinois Watch Company. It is in a silver case and has second hand in middle of the face of the clock. All I know is my grandfather was born in 1891. My Dad told me he remembers his Dad always having it. My Dad was born in 1921.

I took it to a jeweler and wanted to have it repaired. He wanted over $100 to have fixed. he said he thought worth about $500. I don't know if he could have been right.

I didn't have it repaired. As my Dad said it had stopped at the exact time my Grandfather passed away and he never reset it again. I guess I just felt maybe it wouldn't be right for me to have it working again.

I keep it in one of those domed cases that has hook you hang it from and that way stays safe and dust free.

If you know anything about the Illinois Watch Company in this time period would appreciate knowing.
 
Thank you. The watch ran fine for three months, then seemed to stick when it hit the 10 second mark on the sweep hand. When laid down, face up, it ran fine for another three or four months then quit altogether, again at the 10 second mark on the sweep hand.

A correction: I did check with my wife, who confirmed that I was wrong on my initial price, it was $81 with shipping. Bidding started at $42. She said someone drove the price up the last few minutes.

I knew there was a 42 in there somewhere.

If it's 18 karat gold, a 20 Size case likely has at least $1,600 of scrap gold in it, not even considering that it is a scarce, highly desirable horological item. If I may ask, what exactly are the markings on the case and the movement?

20 Size Walthams don't have sweep seconds hands, so I assume you mean the minute hand. (The short seconds hand does not run off the center post, but is in a small, separate "seconds bit" at 6 o'clock.) Correct? We are talking about a key winder, right? Assuming we are talking about a Waltham 20KW, your additional information changes the diagnosis. The problem could have a number of causes, but if the watch always stops when the minute hand is at 10 o'clock, the hand could be fouling on the crystal, which would be trivial to correct. That is the best case scenario. Alternatively, the center wheel pivot hole, which is not jeweled unless it is a very high grade and rare movement, could be worn in such a way that the center wheel pinion is displaced, causing the wheel train to bind periodically.
 
Very interesting thread. Thanks so much for posting.

The oldest pocket watch I have was originally my grandfather's. It was made by the Illinois Watch Company. It is in a silver case and has second hand in middle of the face of the clock. All I know is my grandfather was born in 1891. My Dad told me he remembers his Dad always having it. My Dad was born in 1921.

I took it to a jeweler and wanted to have it repaired. He wanted over $100 to have fixed. he said he thought worth about $500. I don't know if he could have been right.

I didn't have it repaired. As my Dad said it had stopped at the exact time my Grandfather passed away and he never reset it again. I guess I just felt maybe it wouldn't be right for me to have it working again.

I keep it in one of those domed cases that has hook you hang it from and that way stays safe and dust free.

If you know anything about the Illinois Watch Company in this time period would appreciate knowing.

Hi Donna, If you could show some pictures, I would be happy to tell you what I can about your grandpa's watch. Be prepared, however, for the fact that jewelers not infrequently inflate their appraisals of customers' watches in order to justify their repair bills. Ideally, I can give you the most information if I could see pictures of the movement, the dial, and all case surfaces, both inside and out.
 
I don't know how to add a picture. Wish I could.

I know two things about jewelers. If you take for repair they can inflate the price. If you take for appraisal and possible to sell that they lower the value. One has to be very careful who they go to for appraisals.
 
...Next, I'll address authenticity issues with foreign watches. To be continued…

The watch I have a question about is one I've been using for YEARS now reenacting. It has several American-sounding names scratched into the insides of the hunter case like W H Lamar, likely the owner, and Etta and Clara Swafford, equally likely his paramours. It appears to be Swiss and is marked LOCILLE.
 
If it's 18 karat gold, a 20 Size case likely has at least $1,600 of scrap gold in it, not even considering that it is a scarce, highly desirable horological item. If I may ask, what exactly are the markings on the case and the movement?

20 Size Walthams don't have sweep seconds hands, so I assume you mean the minute hand. (The short seconds hand does not run off the center post, but is in a small, separate "seconds bit" at 6 o'clock.) Correct? We are talking about a key winder, right? Assuming we are talking about a Waltham 20KW, your additional information changes the diagnosis. The problem could have a number of causes, but if the watch always stops when the minute hand is at 10 o'clock, the hand could be fouling on the crystal, which would be trivial to correct. That is the best case scenario. Alternatively, the center wheel pivot hole, which is not jeweled unless it is a very high grade and rare movement, could be worn in such a way that the center wheel pinion is displaced, causing the wheel train to bind periodically.
Yes the second hand is located down at the 6 o'clock position and is on its own post. On that small second hand dial, the watch stops at the 10 second mark (running for only one minute.) I just called it the sweep hand, showing my watch ignorance. It is a key wind, I will have to now go find the thing and figure out the exact markings, since I am going from memory here at work.
 
The watch I have a question about is one I've been using for YEARS now reenacting. It has several American-sounding names scratched into the insides of the hunter case like W H Lamar, likely the owner, and Etta and Clara Swafford, equally likely his paramours. It appears to be Swiss and is marked LOCILLE.

Hi, I think you meant "Le Locle." That was a major watchmaking center in Switzerland. Unfortunately, Swiss export watches, many of which were unsigned by their makers, are the hardest to say much about, and without seeing pictures, I can say virtually nothing.
 
Yes the second hand is located down at the 6 o'clock position and is on its own post. On that small second hand dial, the watch stops at the 10 second mark (running for only one minute.) I just called it the sweep hand, showing my watch ignorance. It is a key wind, I will have to now go find the thing and figure out the exact markings, since I am going from memory here at work.

I see. Then it is not a minute hand clearance issue. Too bad. That would have been easy to fix. I had better not speculate anymore then. Well, if you decide that you need a watchmaker referral, let me know. I can help.
 
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