Confederate Marine Uniform?

I never knew either side had Marines, in the Civil war.
Absolutely. Neither took very much part with the exception of shipboard service and blockade duty, but U.S. Marines fought at First Manassas and Confederate Marines fought at Sayler's Creek just before the surrender of the ANV. The CSMC did participate in what were regarded as special operations at the time (ship capture, prisoner breakouts), but there only ended up being something like 500 or 600 of them throughout the war.
 
Hello!
I´m reenacting CSMC since 2008 and David M. Sullivan asked me to tell you (in his name) that the 1. pic is deffinetly Capt Crenshaw CS Army and the 2. pic Ltd Crenshaw CSMC (this pic or a part of it is used in a lot of "CSMC books" like Donnelly "Rebel leathernecks" or Sullivan: "Biographical sketches of CS officers of the CSMC").

Regardes
Sven Peters, Germany

Feel free to visit our CSMC & CS Navy homepage www.csmarines.de. Under "Literatur zum CSMC" you find a lot of literature sources you can look for in the net, .. or ask me if you are intrested. Everything we use is approved by literature sources or David M. Sullivan.
 
Here is Don Troiani's print of CS Marines. You can bet that the uniforms depicted are correct.
upload_2014-10-22_18-23-22.jpeg

Sorry for the small attachment.
 
Hello!
I´m reenacting CSMC since 2008 and David M. Sullivan asked me to tell you (in his name) that the 1. pic is deffinetly Capt Crenshaw CS Army and the 2. pic Ltd Crenshaw CSMC (this pic or a part of it is used in a lot of "CSMC books" like Donnelly "Rebel leathernecks" or Sullivan: "Biographical sketches of CS officers of the CSMC").

Regardes
Sven Peters, Germany

Feel free to visit our CSMC & CS Navy homepage www.csmarines.de. Under "Literatur zum CSMC" you find a lot of literature sources you can look for in the net, .. or ask me if you are intrested. Everything we use is approved by literature sources or David M. Sullivan.


Dear Mr. Peters,

I'd love to chat with you. I've compiled as thorough an archive as I can on Lt. Edward Crenshaw, CSMC.....composed of his diary and all the surviving letters I can find. He served on the CSS Tallahassee, the CSS Virginia II and Semmes Naval Brigade in the weeks after the surrender. Send me a message, if you like.
 
@FrenchZouave: The Troiani pic us good, but incorrect in the chevrons of the enlisted. As refernece the Osprey pics "Osprey, Civil war marines 1861-65" should be used.

CSMC 1861 -64 (kind of mixed up uniforms. Summerdress was grey froack with white pants and darkblue kepi) the blue jackets were worn shortly in 1861
soOrD.jpg


The "winter uniform" dark blue woolen pants
Expired Image Removed
the after 1864 grey uniform with grey kepi (after the changed regualtions)

2hkHj.jpg


a pic of an original 1864 reg.uniform

http://s14.directupload.net/images/141023/temp/5wj5iynv.jpg

The officers had wide variety of uniforms; with or without sholder knots, colored cuffs and collar, .... find some on our "Gallery of CS Marines" site. Enlisted uniforms are mutch rarer ( 2 pics, 3 uniforms/parts) One officer frock survived (pictuered in Osprey) http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3784/8ghb3ip8_jpg.htm
How it have looked like (our reenactment uniforms, the chevrons on the right are wrong!)
10975077hc.jpg

summer dress.................... summer dress.....winter dress........... summer dress....summer dress
 
What description or original uniform is he naming as historical source? When and were was this article published (never read it or seen the pic since 2008).
As the CS Marines were a regular troop/branch the had uniforms soon. Maybe a bit deverse in case of supply.
The Ltd might have looked like that in the first months of secession, but there´s no source of blue pants with RED stripes.
For me this looks a bit like a mixup from whatever "sources".

Sven
 
Robert Marrion's article "The Confederate Southern Navy and Marine Corps 1861-1865" appeared in the Vol. 27 No. 13 September issue of Military Modelling. As sources he lists The Civil War by Brace Caton, The Fighting Men of the Civil War by W.C. Davis, Uniform of the Civil War by F.A. Lord and American Military Equipage 1851-1872 by F.P. Todd.

Robert Marrion is a well known military illustrator from Great Britain. He has publish articles in several military magazines and illustrated many Osprey books. He is known primary for World War One uniforms and I do not know if he is an expert on American Civil War uniforms.

I looked over the sources he used and it appears that the red trouser stripe on the officer may come from F.P. Todd's book. Todd stated "light blue trousers with gold or red welt" for Confederate Marine officers. I would have no idea where Mr. Todd found the information and sadly Mr. Todd is no long with us and we can not ask him his source. I am not sure what Mr. Todd's wife did with his notes.
 
From Mr. Marrion's article: For Confederate Marine officers, "Trousers could be gray, blue, or sky blue, blue, black, or gold stripes are found on the gray trousers gold stripes sometimes on the blue, and red, black or dark blue on the sky blue trousers."

Again I do not know how knowledgeable Mr. Marrion is on Civil War uniforms. His illustration in various Osprey books would indicate he is a well known illustrator of uniforms, but would not indicate he is an expert on American Civil War uniforms.
 
I'm not familiar with the specific work or author under discussion, but the USMC was definitely wearing the "blood stripe" at the time; it had been (re)introduced by "The Old Man of the Corps," Commandant Archibald Henderson, sometime around 1849-1850. It's entirely possible that former USMC in the CSMC may still have been wearing their old Federal trousers; and I seem to recall that some early units were actually issued prewar USMC clothing. So some context of the image-- place and time-- would be very useful in determining how historically correct it is.

(Also, RE Osprey books-- they're a great source of quick info, but they do have their errors, the funniest of which is the apparent radio loop antenna on one of the Mississippi River rams, a favorite of Andy Hall's. :laugh: )
 
You are correct mark that Osprey books are a good source of quick information. I know several people who write these books and they are experts in their field and keep very good notes on where their information comes from. The problem with the Osprey books is they do not contain good documentation of the sources the author used. Osprey does this to keep the books short, because of this we have to accept the word of the author based on their reputation. All books about uniforms have some misinformation and the authors often base the new books on older works which had the misinformation and thus repeat the misinformation.
 
For anyone interested in seeing additional color uniform plates about Confederate Marines the Company of Military Historians have printed three uniform plates in their Military Uniforms in America series. they are plate 643, plate 644 and plate 832.
 
Did South Carolina have its own state marines? I have the POW records of a man whose record card at capture says he was a member of the "SC Marines." He really seems to have been in the CS Navy, since they do have a record of him. And CS Navy was what he put on his pension app.
 
I know South Carolina had a Naval Battalion which guarded a naval yard and might/could be considered as marines. Georgia also had a Naval Battalion. Virginia tried to form a Naval Light Artillery unit (Parker's) which possibly could be considered a marine artillery unit. I have no uniform information on any of these units.
 
- Yes Osprey is a very good source and actually shows on "Osprey: Civil War Marines 1861-65" the right uniforms about gives a good and short description of USMC and CSMC.

- I try to read every info about the CSMC. That includes some "not so good" things. But every thing get´s it´s chance.

- The "State Marines", like the "Virginia States Marines" (and Navys; VS Navy = red frocks) were assimilated very fast in 1861 in the CSMC (and CS Navy). VSMC transfered to the CSMC June 8 1861 (General order #25). This seem to be the only State Marine Corps, also there were other State Navys, maybe including something like Marines.

- The uniforms were for a very short time in 1861 a "former US wearaup". Especially the officers had access and used it to wear CS uniforms fast. The former USMC uniformes were soon changed into CSMC uniforms, the pants grey/grey with black or darkblue stripe/white/darkblue (winter) / or any shades of grayblue satinnett , kersey, ...
The Confederacy didn´t have that leak of material from 1861 on that everyone had to wearup it´s old clothes and than look for the rest of the war as a 1865 rotten jeancloth authentic campaigner (that´s a positive note :wink:). Lt. Crenshaw describes how the officers get some stuff from the Navy depots in 1863/64.
You also can read there how patriotic he was for the CSA. I guess these men really didn´t want to wear theri old uniforms any more.

- There´s no picture of a CSMC officer after 1861 (early war) showing them in blue. The 2 pics known were from June 1861 (Howell, blue pants but you can´t see stripes as these parts are covered) and the Cameron (1862, still blue frock) pic doesn´t show the pants.

- I checked the 2( from 3 ) plates of the Company of Military Historians have printed three uniform plates in their Military Uniforms in America series 8showing officer uniforms). They are plate 643, plate 644 and plate 832. = yes in 643 (1861-62) the officers wear darkblue frocks and one (dark)blue pants with BLACK stripe. In 644 th officers wear grey frocks, one with blue pants and BLACK stripe. Deffinetly NO red stripes.

Fazit: A maybe still wearing is acceptabel for 1861. The normal way should be to wear the standard as sson as it was the standard. (can be referenced by histricak sources)
And right: to base a book on a book is not the right way of citat(?) you can use the 1. hand source from another book in your book to. But the thing that someone says it´s right doesn´t make it right (unless he names his source)

Just to say it: It´s another thing in the CS Navy were it seems standard that most sailors wear blue clothings for a long time. This is referenced by pictures and discriptions too. So there should be a bit more blue or just white.

Your´s
Sven
 
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