Fremont carbines

Joined
May 4, 2014
Here are some images of a M1843 North / Hall carbine I recently acquired. It's one of the 5,000 altered by the W.W.Marston Co. of New York for General Fremont's army of the west. Many of you have read or heard of the famous Civil War Fremont scandal that sprung from the purchase of these carbines - not a fault of the guns but the unscrupulous handling of the money and politics in their purchase and resale to the government. This post is about the guns themselves of which little has been noted. To start with, all the Fremont North/Hall model 43's that were altered were of dates from 1848-1852. This is because these all have steel barrels and are so marked on top of the breech. The receivers were bored out to .585 to accept 58 caliber cartridges. The bores were originally .052 smooth bore but, were rifled with 6 groves making 1 turn in 80" but leaving the bore .052. They just rifled over the existing smooth bore surface. The barrel, bands and receiver were polished bright, the trigger guard and butt plate were left with their brown shellac finish as they were when they were new. The slide bar and sling ring left on in the alterations. However, some have been noted with their receivers still having their bluish case color still showing. The alterations were done in batches, then shipped to St. Louis where they were distributed to Fremont's men. Now, here's where I hope to righten the confusion about the carbines. While their receivers were bored to accept 58 cal. cartridges, they still used a .526 round ball. What was done was to put a .526 ball in the 58 cal. paper cartridge of 85 grains. The paper cartridge was torn open, powder poured in, then the ball placed on top of the powder. They did not put the intact cartridge in as you would have in a Colt revolver with nitrated cartridges. The Fremont carbines were not well received at first, but gained acceptance and were used for the entire war. It's very hard to find one in good condition. They all show hard use. Mine looks pretty rough but the mechanics and bore are in good condition - well enough to put into a shooter and use again. As a side note to this post, I restored my M1819 Hall that was altered to carbine at the Fayetteville, NC arsenal, one of about 750 done there. This past week, I shot it at the A.C.W.S.A. matches in Bristol, WIS. It preformed flawlessly firing a combined 50 rounds in the individual and team carbine competition. It easily loaded and handled well. I easily could keep up with the Smith carbines that were in use. Final note, the M1843 N/H carbines were used in the war with Mexico. It's the model Sam Chamberlin carried and also used its receiver as a pistol. Here are the Northern (Fremont's Army of the West) units that were issued M.1843 North/ Hall carbines during the Civil War:
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Thanks for the posting! I also have an 1851 Hall/North. Mine has an inspectors stamp (JH or JII) on the curved surface just behind the rear sight and inline with the steel marking on the top.
 
Nice post and good looking weapon. What range and accuracy did you get with the M1819?

Good reminder that these weapons were being manufactured into the 1850s and were useful weapons n the 1860s, even the M1819, once converted to percussion and refit.

Thanks.
 
I'm still learning the sight picture, or, I should say trying to lock the picture in my mind so every shot will place well. Here are 2 of my practice targets shot at the local range a couple weeks ago. These 2 were shot at 25 yards with the Fayetteville rested on sand bags. I'm using 35 grains of 2f and a .528 round ball, lubed with a bees wax mix. Powder and ball are both in a standard loading tube. For testing, I cleaned the bore and receiver after every 5 rounds. The 50 yard target, which I did not keep was a bit more scattered as I shot it off hand. I will add the sights on the Halls are hard to see. They're low and your eyes pick up the side of the hammer. Still, they're my favorite to shoot - either flint or percussion. Also in the images Ive sent, the trigger adjustment screw can be seen this feature is found on all Halls from 1811-1843s. This screw allows the trigger to be set to a very light pull.Also note the inside the frame and breech.
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I'm still learning the sight picture, or, I should say trying to lock the picture in my mind so every shot will place well. Here are 2 of my practice targets shot at the local range a couple weeks ago. These 2 were shot at 25 yards with the Fayetteville rested on sand bags. I'm using 35 grains of 2f and a .528 round ball, lubed with a bees wax mix. Powder and ball are both in a standard loading tube. For testing, I cleaned the bore and receiver after every 5 rounds. The 50 yard target, which I did not keep was a bit more scattered as I shot it off hand. I will add the sights on the Halls are hard to see. They're low and your eyes pick up the side of the hammer. Still, they're my favorite to shoot - either flint or percussion. Also in the images Ive sent, the trigger adjustment screw can be seen this feature is found on all Halls from 1811-1843s. This screw allows the trigger to be set to a very light pull.Also note the inside the frame and breech.
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Many thanks for posting; nice shooting. Pretty impressive design for 1819 ... Reworked for percussion and the updated cartridge, and they were still effective weapons four decades later.

Anyone know if many of the M1819 rifles were used in 1861+? There were about 24,000 manufactured, separately from the carbines...

Same question on the ~50,000 M1803s, M1814s, and M1817s ... Even if half of them were expended by 1861, that still would have left 25,000 muzzleloaders and 12,000 breechloaders, and all four types appear to have been converted to percussion effectively in the years after adoption.

Best,
 
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With the 1808 militia act the southern states each received Harpers Ferry made Hall rifles and carbines as well as the S.North made Halls. I've not yet tabulated the number of Halls in the south at the time of the war. I can tell you the number is fairly high. For example: Louisiana had 3,000 at Baton Rouge, Virginia had over 1.000, Georgia had about 600 in the Augusta arsenal. Each state had amounts of Halls in theses ranges or close. Most all of them were put into active service entering the war in flint; but, were rotated back for conversion to percussion as the war progressed and then placed back into use. 16 grooved round balls have been recovered from battle fields of the war. Most collectors don't know what they're looking at, so they're not always noted as when they find a more common mine ball. What I've been waiting for is someone to find for I.D. is a 16 grooved conical. Something we think was made for use in the Halls but has never been seen. The early Hall is holding down the target for the picture. It's one of the Hall sporting rifles made between 1815-1817. It's about 42 cal. and has been converted to percussion. It's here to restore and put back in to shooting condition. Thanks for the interest in this topic.
 
With the 1808 militia act the southern states each received Harpers Ferry made Hall rifles and carbines as well as the S.North made Halls. I've not yet tabulated the number of Halls in the south at the time of the war. I can tell you the number is fairly high. For example: Louisiana had 3,000 at Baton Rouge, Virginia had over 1.000, Georgia had about 600 in the Augusta arsenal. Each state had amounts of Halls in theses ranges or close. Most all of them were put into active service entering the war in flint; but, were rotated back for conversion to percussion as the war progressed and then placed back into use. 16 grooved round balls have been recovered from battle fields of the war. Most collectors don't know what they're looking at, so they're not always noted as when they find a more common mine ball. What I've been waiting for is someone to find for I.D. is a 16 grooved conical. Something we think was made for use in the Halls but has never been seen. The early Hall is holding down the target for the picture. It's one of the Hall sporting rifles made between 1815-1817. It's about 42 cal. and has been converted to percussion. It's here to restore and put back in to shooting condition. Thanks for the interest in this topic.

So of the 52,000 M1819s and M1843s, rifles and carbines, you think maybe 20,000 in southern hands by 1861?

Interesting...

Thanks for en information and then photos.

Best,
 
So of the 52,000 M1819s and M1843s, rifles and carbines, you think maybe 20,000 in southern hands by 1861?

Interesting...

Thanks for en information and then photos.

Best,

Schmidt has some good numbers in his book "Hall's Military Breechloaders". The problem with trying to establish a number of Halls, especially when listing both rifles and carbines, is that prior to the war the US Ordnance Department sold off some pretty substantial numbers of Halls, especially carbines. So if one lists state inventories from 1860, the total number of Halls in Confederate hands in 1861 is likely several thousand higher given the numbers bought by arms speculators and later resold south.
Also, in addition to breechloading Halls, Confederate armorers also remaunfactured their components into several types of muzzleloading rifles and at least one type of new-made rising breech carbine. In the case of arms owned by Virginia, substantial numbers of them were reworked by Read and Watson in 1861-1862 and were subsequently used as muzzleloaders. Somewhere around 1,000 Halls rifles and carbines were altered by the firm, which account for the majority of the established inventory of Va. state owned guns.

Cheers,
Garrett
 
Very interesting. Were there other smoothbore Hall's carbines that were rifled other than the Fremont carbines?
 
Yes, the Fremont M1843's are the only Hall type carbine that were rifled during the war. All Halls, Harpers Ferry and S. North of Middleton, Con. were original smooth bores fitted with sliding bayonets. The Harpers Ferry models are .052 and the North models are .058 until 1838. In 1838, it was decided to make them .052 to standardize the ammunition. There is one exception, the M1836 Hall was made in .064 musket caliber with a sliding bayonet. There were a few experiment rifled carbines made at Harpers Ferry for testing, but these were model arms not issued. S. North did a special run of carbines for the Mobile Company of Rifles. This order was placed in 1836. These carbines are the same as the standard North M1833 but used leftover North M1819 rifle barrels of the .052 16 grove that are cut to the 26" carbine length (modern collectors call these refilled carbines). In the south at the start of the war, a number of Halls were parts out in an attempt to make better use of them. Most notable is the work of Read & Watson of Danville V.A. The state of Virginia had about 950 of theirs re-built into muzzle loaders. I've included a pic of one showing the removed supporters to help show some of the many steps in this re-build. The shops at Danville also used Hall barrels, cut off stocks and small parts to make other types of carbines. Of these, the most interesting is the brass copy of Sharps carbines. The draftsman/designer of all of these ingenious carbines in Danville was Salmon Adams.
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Schmidt has some good numbers in his book "Hall's Military Breechloaders". The problem with trying to establish a number of Halls, especially when listing both rifles and carbines, is that prior to the war the US Ordnance Department sold off some pretty substantial numbers of Halls, especially carbines. So if one lists state inventories from 1860, the total number of Halls in Confederate hands in 1861 is likely several thousand higher given the numbers bought by arms speculators and later resold south.
Also, in addition to breechloading Halls, Confederate armorers also remaunfactured their components into several types of muzzleloading rifles and at least one type of new-made rising breech carbine. In the case of arms owned by Virginia, substantial numbers of them were reworked by Read and Watson in 1861-1862 and were subsequently used as muzzleloaders. Somewhere around 1,000 Halls rifles and carbines were altered by the firm, which account for the majority of the established inventory of Va. state owned guns.

Cheers,
Garrett

Thanks for the informative post; I will see if I can find the Schmidt book.

Best,
 
Yes, the Fremont M1843's are the only Hall type carbine that were rifled during the war. All Halls, Harpers Ferry and S. North of Middleton, Con. were original smooth bores fitted with sliding bayonets. The Harpers Ferry models are .052 and the North models are .058 until 1838. In 1838, it was decided to make them .052 to standardize the ammunition. There is one exception, the M1836 Hall was made in .064 musket caliber with a sliding bayonet. There were a few experiment rifled carbines made at Harpers Ferry for testing, but these were model arms not issued. S. North did a special run of carbines for the Mobile Company of Rifles. This order was placed in 1836. These carbines are the same as the standard North M1833 but used leftover North M1819 rifle barrels of the .052 16 grove that are cut to the 26" carbine length (modern collectors call these refilled carbines). In the south at the start of the war, a number of Halls were parts out in an attempt to make better use of them. Most notable is the work of Read & Watson of Danville V.A. The state of Virginia had about 950 of theirs re-built into muzzle loaders. I've included a pic of one showing the removed supporters to help show some of the many steps in this re-build. The shops at Danville also used Hall barrels, cut off stocks and small parts to make other types of carbines. Of these, the most interesting is the brass copy of Sharps carbines. The draftsman/designer of all of these ingenious carbines in Danville was Salmon Adams.
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Thank you for the information. At the Regimental Quartermaster in Gettysburg a couple of weeks ago, I was looking at a rifled M1843 and wondered if it was one of the Fremont carbines.
 
Sorry about the incorrect placement of the decimal point.
With the carbine at R.Q. in Gettysburg its probably is one of the Fremont carbines. They are very common. Check the date - if its between 1848-1852 that's the correct range. Ask if the receiver can be opened. It will actually look much larger than the bore. If they allow the use a mic on the receiver, it will fall in at about 58 cal or a bit larger(5/8" ths by my mesurment). If all these things listed are correct, its a Fremont.
 
One of my ancestors was in the 1st Alabama Infantry. A few years back, I searched google images to see if I could spot a soldier from the 1st Alabama to take a gander at their uniforms and/or weaponry. I happened upon this guy:
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“A. P. Safford, 1st Alabama Infantry. Safford wears a dark colored shell jacket with standup collar and shoulder tabs with matching trousers, a pattern known to have been issued to Alabama troops early in the war. Huge slouch hat with side turned up and knee high boots. Holds a flintlock Hall breech loading rifle with hammer cocked and unidentified pistol tucked in to his very wide waist belt. Suspended from the belt on strap hangers is the D-guard Bowie knife"

Now the 1st Alabama Infantry had a tendency get in tight spots with out avenues for retreat, so they surrendered at Island Number 10 and Port Hudson. This means that they were issued weapons at least 3 times. Taking into account this guy's dapper hat and uniform, his bowie knife, the intact flintlock system on the Hall Rifle, and his thick body type, I'd say this dude is posing for this picture early in the war.

We all know that all the weapons here are likely to be props, too.

Either way, I thought it was cool that my ancestor might well have carried a Hall Rifle.

The angle of the stock always looked odd to me. Is it a comfortable shooter?
 
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