Who Owned Ft. Sumter?

[Rebelrose]

Forum,

I have been researching the events leading to the outbreak of war between the Union and the CSA, and came across some information leading me to believe that Ft. Sumter really wasn't the property of the federal government, due to agreements made in 1794 and again in 1805, between South Carolina and the federal government. If Ft. Sumter belonged to South Carolina, then why did Lincoln and his administration believe it was federal property? If anyone has any information relating to this topic, I would be most appreciative.

Rebelrose

[Elennsar]

Apparently, the documents declaring that it was, indeed, Federal property are not sufficient.

This has been covered in multiple threads, so I would humbly request that they and the documents refered to be read.

[Glorybound]

Hi Rose, great to see you back. I went back and searched out a thread that has dealt with this ownership issue and I'll post it here. Maybe you'll still have your viewpoint as it stands, and maybe you'll find a different one. Try this link maybe:

http://civilwartalk.com/forums/civil...ft-sumter.html


Lee

[unionblue]

Rebelrose,

You may also wish to view the other thread here at the forum:

http://civilwartalk.com/forums/civil...ownership.html

Please note Post# 2 of this thread as it has numerous other threads that touch on your topic of interest.

Hope it helps with your questions.

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[Rebelrose]

Glorybound and Unionblue,

Thanks for the references re: my query. I'll check them out and see what I can learn from them.

Rebelrose

[unionblue]

A bit of background from another thread given by cash:

"Mr. President, at this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every friend at the North. The firing upon that fort will inaugurate a civil war greater than any the world has yet seen." [Robert Toombs speaking to Jefferson Davis in confederate cabinet meeting, 11 April 1861, quoted in W. A. Swanberg, First Blood: The Story of Fort Sumter, p. 286]

Sincerely,
Unionblue

[Elennsar]

Who here has argued that Lincoln tricked the Rebels into firing on Fort Sumpter?

Since the only "military move" against Sumpter prior to the bombardment was by the Confederates besieging it and putting artillery in a position to bombard it, one is left wondering about that as well.

[Battalion]

A bit of background from another thread given by cash:

"Mr. President, at this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every friend at the North. The firing upon that fort will inaugurate a civil war greater than any the world has yet seen." [Robert Toombs speaking to Jefferson Davis in confederate cabinet meeting, 11 April 1861, quoted in W. A. Swanberg, First Blood: The Story of Fort Sumter, p. 286]

Sincerely,
Unionblue

It was Lincoln who initiated the military move against Sumter and thereby instigated the war.

There are several here who will deny this but also say- "Isn't it clever how Lincoln tricked the Rebels into firing on Fort Sumter." And that pretty much confirms what they deny.

[OpnOlympic]

No, some have asserted that If, Lincoln tricked the csa into starting the war(which he did not) then it was still effective, due to the ignorance or arrongance of Davis.
By the way, the first act of war(besides the moths of violence and acts of terrorism in the south) was the firing on the Star of the West, under Buchanan's adminisstration.

[Battalion]

...By the way, the first act of war(besides the moths of violence and acts of terrorism in the south) was the firing on the Star of the West, under Buchanan's adminisstration.

What acts of terrorism?

Don't know what "moths of violence" are...

[Horace Porter]

Don't know what "moths of violence" are...

Ask your sweaters.

[OpnOlympic]

There are voluminous lists of outrages, violence, illegal acts perpetrated all through the south, leading up the Firing on Ft. Sumter, listed on various threads on this board, including those concerning those concerning the ownership of Ft. Sumter. As even Battalion, is aware.

[K Hale]

Don't know what "moths of violence" are...

Not a fan of Japanese sci fi?

[Baggage Handler #2]

It was Lincoln who initiated the military move against Sumter and thereby instigated the war.

...

Gitmo 1961, Berlin 1948, DMZ 1954, Sumter 1861.

To argue for the reduction of one on this list - based on those principles- is to argue for the reduction of all of them.

[unionblue]

It was Lincoln who initiated the military move against Sumter and thereby instigated the war.

Really? So the firing on Ft. Sumter was to prevent Lincoln making a military move AGAINST Ft. Sumter? Now, that would be some trick!

There are several here who will deny this but also say- "Isn't it clever how Lincoln tricked the Rebels into firing on Fort Sumter." And that pretty much confirms what they deny.

Battalion,

We both know from history that neither side tricked anyone into doing something they weren't already planning to do. Lincoln wanted the South to fire on Ft. Sumter, or Ft. Pickens, or on ANY Union fort, ship, installation or Union territory.

And we both know Davis wanted the same thing, to have the North fire first at ANY Confederate fort or installation or Confederate territory.

And we both know who fired first.

Unionblue

[wilber6150]

I think we have been down this road before lol

[Scribe]

It was Lincoln who initiated the military move against Sumter and thereby instigated the war.

There are several here who will deny this but also say- "Isn't it clever how Lincoln tricked the Rebels into firing on Fort Sumter." And that pretty much confirms what they deny.

Beyond the fact that the Confederacy had commited many acts of war against the United States starting months before Sumter, you might want to consider that Virginia Congressman Roger Pryor advised "Do not distrust Virginia. As sure as tomorrow's sun will rise upon us, just so sure will Virginia be a member of the Southern Confederacy. And I will tell you, gentlemen, what will put her in the Southern Confederacy in less than an hour by Shrewsbury clock -- strike a blow! The very moment that blood is shed, old Virginia will make common cause with her sisters of the South."

And Alabama legislator and newspaper editor J.G. Gilchrist advised Jefferson Davis and his cabinet "Gentlemen, unless you sprinkle blood in the faces of the people of Alabama, they will be back in the old Union in less than ten days."

Strike a blow Davis did, and there was war.

[ole]

It's a long and heavily rutted road, Will. I'll not venture a guess how many times we've travelled it. And when we get to the end of it, when the fried chicken is on the table, someone will say ... again ... that Lincoln lured Davis into firing on Sumter.

So we go back to square one and run the road again.

Someone will say, "Was Jeff Davis stupid?" And someone will say, "He couldn't have been that stupid." And someone will say that "He was left with no choice, and the north invaded the south."

And we are doomed to ride the rutted road again. And again. Never to actually get to that fried chicken. I like steamed dumplings. Bisquick and enough milk to make dollops that can be steamed. Heck. I'll even eat spaetzel with fried chicken.

And that is off topic, and so is this discussion.

Ole

[Freddy]

On at least three threads here concerning the ownership of Fort Sumter the document where the South Carolina legislature turned over Ft. Sumter to the US is posted, twice by yours truly. I say three strikes and your out just like baseball.

[whitworth]

Under the U.S. Constitution, the U.S. had the right to "the erection of forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful buildings."
Sumter was there to protect a harbor of the United States, and not just South Carolina.

Firing on federal troops at Fort Sumter was simply insurrection.

U.S. Constitution. Section 8

"The Congress shall have power to: ...To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions."

And as we all know, the Confederate States ceased to exist in 1865, due to their actions.

[Battalion]

"South Carolina had ceded property in Charleston Harbor to the federal Government in 1805, upon the condition that “the United States... repair the fortifications now existing thereon or build such other forts or fortifications as may be deemed most expedient by the Executive of the United States on the same, and keep a garrison or garrisons therein” (The Statutes at Large of South Carolina, Volume V, page 501).

Work on Fort Sumter had begun in 1829 and had still not been completed by 1860. Unfinished and unoccupied for over thirty years, the terms of the cession were clearly violated and it was thus “void and of no effect.”

Consequently, the fort was never the property of the United States Government, as Lincoln claimed in his first Inaugural Address, and, upon secession from the Union, the only duty which South Carolina owed, either legally or morally, to the other States was “adequate compensation... for the value of the works and for any other advantage obtained by the one party, or loss incurred by the other” (Jefferson Davis, The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government, Volume I, page 211). "

[ole]

Thank you, sir.

Ole

[matthew mckeon]

Did anyone, at the time(1860) mention all this real estate mumbo jumbo once? Did Davis bark: Start shooting, the deed's not in order? Did Beauregard order, open fire men, as soon as the title search is done? Is anyone going to say AT THE TIME, this nonsense was first, tenth or one thousand on the list of things that people were concerned about?

It's not a red herring, its a red whale! Thar it blows.

[unionblue]

Battalion,

Jefferson Davis trying to justify his own actions long after the war still does not constitute the legal ownership of Ft. Sumter being that of the United States government.

We've had this argument and trying to sneak the same old arguments on a more recent post does not counter that historical fact.

Unionblue

[OpnCoronet]

In any case, more detailed legislation had been enacted by the state gov't of SC, After 1805. Including the one they passed to get the Federal gov't to resume work on the installation.