CBF & Black Southerners (corrected)

[johan_steele]

OK let's try this again.

Does the CBF and Southern Pride have a different meaning to black southerners than white?

Poll Answers:
1. "Blacks Ain't Southerners!"
2. Yes! The CBF applies equally to all regardless of race.
3. Wow! I really have no idea!
4. Depends upon the Time Frame.
5. It holds a different meaning for each individual.
6. The CBF was coopted by the KKK & other organizations.
7. The CBF will forever stand for making a difficult stand, right or wrong.

[ole]

Sorry, Shane. This dog don't hunt. I'll stay on the porch.
Ole

[Ozark Iron John]

I guess you'd be askin the black southerners to vote. Right?

[jkeith21]

OK let's try this again.

Does the CBF and Southern Pride have a different meaning to black southerners than white?

Poll Answers:
1. "Blacks Ain't Southerners!"
2. Yes! The CBF applies equally to all regardless of race.
3. Wow! I really have no idea!
4. Depends upon the Time Frame.
5. It holds a different meaning for each individual.
6. The CBF was coopted by the KKK & other organizations.
7. The CBF will forever stand for making a difficult stand, right or wrong.

I was going to participate but couldn't find the box to check that just said "Yes". You needed a poll to ascertain this?

[johan_steele]

Jkeith; I know it means different things to different people. The CBF means something totally different between My Grand-mother in law and you. I'm interested in different views as to why. The poll probably was an ill advised idea...

[jkeith21]

Shane - The problem understanding what the CBF means is that no one who was not raised under it, or even under the ghost of it can understand what it means.

Parallel would be like trying to understand what'd it be like to be black.

The true essence of it cannot be explained or understood without benefit of the experience.

The closest I could possibly get you to it would be to ask you to imagine how you'd now feel when you saw Old Glory if the US had lost the War. And even if you could do that, you'd still only just approach the essence because in fact the US did not lose the War and it's the generations of experience under those conditions that flavors the stew.

Make any sense to you?

Can we be made ashamed of the flag by people who misuse it? No, only ashamed of those who do misuse it.

- Joe

[larry_cockerham]

The Confederate battle flag is like the sight of the Stars and Stripes flying at the ballpark or over the Capitol in Washington. Just does something to a Southern soul. A warm fuzzy feeling. No hate, just a warm fuzzy feeling. It's who we are as a people. St. Andrew would have wanted it that way.

[Historicaly Correct]

Well lets see where do I start......
Personaly I think the CBF is a American icon. This flag is what the southern men rallied around. Just as much as we do today with the Stars and Stripes. It disheartens me when people say, use, abuse, or in otherwise disgrace the flag. The CBF is a symbol of the Confedaracy weither good or bad in your eyes or not. Those men were AMERICANS just like me. You may not have liked their cause and even thought it wrong but many good man gave his life for it. I served in the USAF and darn proud of it. I was willing to do my duty at any cost, much like the southern men did during that time. People who squak the loudest need to see the facts, understand the reasons, and show some respect. This symbol was used 150 years ago. It was to be the flag of a new nation. The Stars and Stripes was made and used in the same fashon 200+ years ago. WE ARE ALL REBEL DECENDANTS (if your family tree goes back that far). Well I said enough maybe to much.
HC

[Wild_Rose]

The Confederate battle flag is like the sight of the Stars and Stripes flying at the ballpark or over the Capitol in Washington. Just does something to a Southern soul. A warm fuzzy feeling. No hate, just a warm fuzzy feeling. It's who we are as a people. St. Andrew would have wanted it that way.

Larry, I think that says it all. It's who we are as a people.

"You have no right to ask, or expect that she will at once profess unbounded love to that Union from which for four years she tried to escape at the cost of her best blood and all her treasure. Nor can you believe her to be so unutterably hypocritical, so base, as to declare that the flag of the Union has already surpassed in her heart the place which has so long been sacred to the 'Southern Cross.' "

-General Wade Hampton

Yet, 140 years later the American flag has surpassed the Southern Cross in our hearts, although we can't forget the St. Andrews cross and what it means to us as a people.

Rose

[Scotsman]

The Confederate battle flag is like the sight of the Stars and Stripes flying at the ballpark or over the Capitol in Washington. Just does something to a Southern soul. A warm fuzzy feeling. No hate, just a warm fuzzy feeling. It's who we are as a people. St. Andrew would have wanted it that way.

Who, specifically, are you including in your reference to the "Southern soul" and "we...as a people"? Not every person born and raised in the southern states feels the same about the flag.

[jkeith21]

Who, specifically, are you including in your reference to the "Southern soul" and "we...as a people"? Not every person born and raised in the southern states feels the same about the flag.

Nor about grits either, probably. But I'd recommend that if you had an contrary opinion, add it rather than take silent non-specific offense to being bundled into a group you don't feel yourself to be a part of. I think we'd all acknowledge that there are exceptions to every rule.

[ole]

Grits! Blechhhh! Guess you hadda been there! Fed some of my family sausage gravey though. This far north that don't happen often.
Ole

[johan_steele]

Grits! Blechhhh! Guess you hadda been there! Fed some of my family sausage gravey though. This far north that don't happen often.
Ole

Lets not get started on chitlins either...

[Scotsman]

Nor about grits either, probably. But I'd recommend that if you had an contrary opinion, add it rather than take silent non-specific offense to being bundled into a group you don't feel yourself to be a part of. I think we'd all acknowledge that there are exceptions to every rule.

You didn't answer my question.

By your comment "exceptions to every rule," are we to assume you mean that those who do not see the flag as you do are somehow different or outsiders to mainline Southerners?

[jkeith21]

You didn't answer my question.

By your comment "exceptions to every rule," are we to assume you mean that those who do not see the flag as you do are somehow different or outsiders to mainline Southerners?

You didn't ask me a question... you asked Larry a question.

But in answer to this one, Scots... yes. I think most folks who were raised in the South... who's families were raised in the South and who's ancestors fought for the South or were around during that late unplesantness do feel this way and those who haven't been beaten down by much of this political correctness crapola would be most proud to say so. I would be surprised... no... floored if it were otherwise.

[Scotsman]

You didn't ask me a question... you asked Larry a question.

You are right. Perhaps Larry will better explain his position.

But in answer to this one, Scots... yes. I think most folks who were raised in the South... who's families were raised in the South and who's ancestors fought for the South or were around during that late unplesantness do feel this way and those who haven't been beaten down by much of this political correctness crapola would be most proud to say so. I would be surprised... no... floored if it were otherwise.

How many people does this include? And how are we to label these people?

For instance, what about people raised in the South, but whose family moved there some time after the Civil War? What about those whose family were Unionists? And what about black Southerners who were raised in the South and whose families were there the entire time? Many people from these groups do not see the CBF in the same light. They are Southerners, are they not?

Further, there are some who were not born in the South, but who celebrate it due to their family history or for some other interest. They are not Southerners.

Overall, it would not be fair or accurate to say that "Southerners" see the CBF in a certain way. What we are talking about here is not a sectional identity, but an ideological or psychological identity. So, what would be a more accurate way to describe or group the people who celebrate the flag?

[jkeith21]

You are right. Perhaps Larry will better explain his position.

How many people does this include? And how are we to label these people?

For instance, what about people raised in the South, but whose family moved there some time after the Civil War? What about those whose family were Unionists? And what about black Southerners who were raised in the South and whose families were there the entire time? Many people from these groups do not see the CBF in the same light. They are Southerners, are they not?

Further, there are some who were not born in the South, but who celebrate it due to their family history or for some other interest. They are not Southerners.

Overall, it would not be fair or accurate to say that "Southerners" see the CBF in a certain way. What we are talking about here is not a sectional identity, but an ideological or psychological identity. So, what would be a more accurate way to describe or group the people who celebrate the flag?

Mr. Scots - You ask some pretty emcompassing questions but at the same time seem to be splitting some fairly fine hairs.

So allow me to back track a bit and restate my position... that I/we feel a certain "indefinable" way about the CBF and further and strongly opined that most of the "...folks who were raised in the South... who's families were raised in the South and who's ancestors fought for the South or were around during that late unplesantness..." also share those feelings. That's a fairly well-defined group, except now looking at your questions I probably could have been a bit more specific with "...ancestors...around during that late unplesantness...".

You offer a number of questions and hypotheticals that could all be exceptions to my claim, yet I might claim they fall outside of my defined group but neither tack really accomplishes anything.

Yes, you are correct that there are idealogical Southerners and there are geographical Southerners. Some could be members of both groups although that would not be required. Either may rightfully and proudly (if they wish) call themselves Southerners, and not to the exclusion of the other group using the same term. (Unless you want to take this hyphenation crapola to new heights of ridiculousness and then we could be Geo-Southerners, or Ideo-Southerners or even Geo-Ideo-Southerners. Would that suit your purposes better?)

If you want to be called a Southerner but don't have the same warm fuzzies I do about the flag... Heck, that's no problem... for me, anyway.

If I knew what the real issue was you are trying to address here I could possibly reply a bit more directly. If I haven't properly addressed your question(s), give me some more help and I'll try again. Thanks - Joe

[SpiritofPickett]

To get a truely correct response, shouldn't only black people vote?

I might think I know what they feel but then I might be wrong?

[Scotsman]

jkeith,

Actually, I am not basing my posts or questions upon my own personal situation (although I do share some of the elements of being "Southern" you mention). In short, it is not my intention to simply carve a place out for myself.

I am looking at the issue as a whole. And I am responding to assumptions many people have about being "Southern" and about the CBF.

When I hear people say that "Southerners" see the flag a certain way, I immediately wonder how one can put all people from the southern states into a single ideological group -- especially when there are many in the South who do not view the flag in the same light. What is this grouping based upon? Is it based upon the belief that only true Southerners celebrate the CBF? This might mean that the term "Southerners" refers to people who do not simply live in the southern states, but who adhere to a certain ideology. Or, is it due to the common habit of people working within the realm of preconceived notions -- that the "South" or "Southerners" is made up of certain people (Confederate descendants, etc.). But, like this thread asks, how do black Southerners feel about it? Too many times I have seen the term "South" inferring only the white South.

I think there needs to be a better definition of just who or what celebrates the CBF. It is not limited to, nor includes all, people in the South. It does not include all people with Confederate ancestery. It really is only a group defined by a common belief or set of ideas.

What is a better description of this group of people?

[jkeith21]

jkeith,

Actually, I am not basing my posts or questions upon my own personal situation (although I do share some of the elements of being "Southern" you mention). In short, it is not my intention to simply carve a place out for myself.

I am looking at the issue as a whole. And I am responding to assumptions many people have about being "Southern" and about the CBF.

When I hear people say that "Southerners" see the flag a certain way, I immediately wonder how one can put all people from the southern states into a single ideological group -- especially when there are many in the South who do not view the flag in the same light. What is this grouping based upon? Is it based upon the belief that only true Southerners celebrate the CBF? This might mean that the term "Southerners" refers to people who do not simply live in the southern states, but who adhere to a certain ideology. Or, is it due to the common habit of people working within the realm of preconceived notions -- that the "South" or "Southerners" is made up of certain people (Confederate descendants, etc.). But, like this thread asks, how do black Southerners feel about it? Too many times I have seen the term "South" inferring only the white South.

I think there needs to be a better definition of just who or what celebrates the CBF. It is not limited to, nor includes all, people in the South. It does not include all people with Confederate ancestery. It really is only a group defined by a common belief or set of ideas.

What is a better description of this group of people?

Mr Scots - It is my opinion that you are hung up in semantics (or are possibly attempting to hang up the discussion in the semantics) for it appears fairly obvious from your posts that you understand that there are many potential (different?) demographics that can fall within the general description of "Southern" or "Southerners" just as there would be within any/every other similar, general descriptor.

If, for whatever reason, you feel there needs to be a better, more thorough or more specific definition/description of what or who celebrates (appreciates) the Confederate battle flag then... have at it.

I've been taught, used, shared and enjoyed "Southern" for well over 50 years now and there, up to this point, has been little confusion generated from doing so. Therefore, I think I'll just stick with it.

[Rad2duhbone53]

Like it or not..... the CBF is part of this nation's history. The nation's tenacity if I can call it, that is found in many letters and diaries of southern soldiers who fought under the St. Andrew's Cross can be documented throughout this country's archives. It is that same tenacity that can be found throughout today's military from all 50 states. It shows what the people of these United States of America (both North and South) can accomplish. I have no ill feelings toward those that fought under the CBF...... however I despise those that abuse the CBF in post 1865 .That irks me.

[jkorber]

I seldom chime in on CBF discussion but I read alot of thought prevoking comments so.....

Since it was a battle flag would the average CSA citizen, not in the army,
would have been anymore choked up about it than Joe Blow from PA, would have been enamoured by an Ohio state flag? How "national" an ensign was it? more so than the actual confederate national flag?
It certainly is distinctive in its appearance which would explain its effectiveness as a battlefield ensign (which afterall was why it was designed, to be distinctive on a battlefield)
As a symbol, it has been commandeered, used by many groups whose activities are not always approved by society. I would venture to say that for many many people, their thoughts and opinions of the symbol has been forever and irrevocably tainted by its postwar use, add to the rampant modern PC'ness and the reaction to that PC'ness and I think it becomes quite a morass...great for keeping a discussion going but ultimately I see no resolution to its controversial nature.
I would venture to say, given the state of some folks education out there in the general population, that alot of folks don't even connect it to the ACW anymore

Like it or not..... the CBF is part of this nation's history. The nation's tenacity if I can call it, that is found in many letters and diaries of southern soldiers who fought under the St. Andrew's Cross can be documented throughout this country's archives. It is that same tenacity that can be found throughout today's military from all 50 states. It shows what the people of these United States of America (both North and South) can accomplish. I have no ill feelings toward those that fought under the CBF...... however I despise those that abuse the CBF in post 1865 .That irks me.

[larry_cockerham]

Jkorker, that's precisely why 30,000 SCV members are working on educating folks alive today about the role of the Confederate battle flag in the war and it's origins plus the attachments of the descendants of those who used it as a rallying point in their efforts in the war. As you know, there is still much to overcome. National flags (3) versus actual battle flags (regimental) is another topic that few understand.

[Scotsman]

Mr Scots - It is my opinion that you are hung up in semantics (or are possibly attempting to hang up the discussion in the semantics) for it appears fairly obvious from your posts that you understand that there are many potential (different?) demographics that can fall within the general description of "Southern" or "Southerners" just as there would be within any/every other similar, general descriptor.

You agree with me that the term "Southerner" does not, today, very well describe any united or ideological group -- particularly in regards to the CBF. Is it, then, unnecessary semantics to better categorize celebrants of the CBF beyond the admittedly insufficient or even inaccurate title "Southerners"?

One cannot say that "Southerners" feel a certain way about the flag, since we can all agree that not all people in the southern states fall into that category.

I've been taught, used, shared and enjoyed "Southern" for well over 50 years now and there, up to this point, has been little confusion generated from doing so. Therefore, I think I'll just stick with it.

The reason there has been "little confusion" is likely because many people share assumptions with you of what the South is. Breaking down these assumptions, or at least identifying them, is an important step in historical or logical accuracy.

The problem here is not a matter of semantics, but of accuracy. Further, it does touch the line of arrogance -- for it classifies "Southerners" as only those people who share certain ideological views. As I asked before, where do people from the South but who do not celebrate the CBF as you fit in? Are they Southerners? You seem to agree they are. If so, then you must agree that the use of the general term "Southeners" is inaccurate, for it admittedly excludes a large number of southern people.

Overall, people have a natural habit of grouping, stereotyping, or lumping others (and themselves) into categories. This is not always a negative habit. But, it has been used many times with negative consequences. People who use simplistic groupings to describe specific traits or issues not conducive to the whole generally demonstrate a level of ignorance or carelessness.

The question boils down to: do all "Southerners" feel the same way about the flag? If not, then the use of the term "Southerners" without further qualification or description is inaccurate and careless.

[jkeith21]

You agree with me that the term "Southerner" does not, today, very well describe any united or ideological group -- particularly in regards to the CBF.

No... I have quite plainly stated, several times, that I am quite comfortable with the usage of the term and feel it to be adequate and properly descriptive of the general concept... even if in some circumstances, 5 more seconds of conversation may be required to clarify any further distinctions that may be desired or required. I have also allowed that if others wish to use it for the same or different purposes as it suits their purpose(s), then I have no problem with them doing so... but I do not own the term nor regulate the use of the term... and have only expressed my opinion as requested. I have also tried to encourage you to do what you feel to be proper to further deliniate the term if and as you feel it would best serve your own purposes, for it is not me experiencing the problem... and that I see no potential problem needing a solution... and that I do not wish to spend time solving a problem that requires no solution.

Is it, then, unnecessary semantics to better categorize celebrants of the CBF beyond the admittedly insufficient or even inaccurate title "Southerners"?

Well... what further can I say?

One cannot say that "Southerners" feel a certain way about the flag, since we can all agree that not all people in the southern states fall into that category.

I'll leave you to pick that nit.

The reason there has been "little confusion" is likely because many people share assumptions with you of what the South is. Breaking down these assumptions, or at least identifying them, is an important step in historical or logical accuracy.

I'll agree if you discard the word "important" yet do not lightly disregard the the fact that it may be important to you.

The problem here is not a matter of semantics, but of accuracy.

...or of accurate semantics?

Further, it does touch the line of arrogance --

... you're trying to hurt my feelings, aren't you?


for it classifies "Southerners" as only those people who share certain ideological views. As I asked before, where do people from the South but who do not celebrate the CBF as you fit in? Are they Southerners? You seem to agree they are. If so, then you must agree that the use of the general term "Southeners" is inaccurate, for it admittedly excludes a large number of southern people.

Overall, people have a natural habit of grouping, stereotyping, or lumping others (and themselves) into categories. This is not always a negative habit. But, it has been used many times with negative consequences. People who use simplistic groupings to describe specific traits or issues not conducive to the whole generally demonstrate a level of ignorance or carelessness.

The question boils down to: do all "Southerners" feel the same way about the flag? If not, then the use of the term "Southerners" without further qualification or description is inaccurate and careless.

Mountain?... or molehill?