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  1. #26
    Captain (5000+ posts) K Hale's Avatar
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    I wonder if you are thinking of something else. According to everything I've read, Stuart got to Union Mills at dawn, had breakfast, and sang.
    Last edited by K Hale; 03-14-2010 at 11:35 PM.
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    Sergeant Major (1750+ posts) prroh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K Hale View Post
    I wonder if you are thinking of something else. According to everything I've read, Stuart got to Union Mills at dawn, had breakfast, and sang.
    Fitzhugh Lee got there the night before. Maybe the Docent at the Schriver place mistook Lee for Stuart. But anyway, Lee's arrival at Union Mills, about seven miles away from Westminster indicates that not that much time was lost. The column was pretty long. Maybe two miles or so.(my guess)

    A thing to remember is that the road network gives very few options. Wagons and artillery do not do well going cross country.
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    Pat

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    Captain (5000+ posts) K Hale's Avatar
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    Fitz got there at 2am. The Confederate Shrivers offered him a bed in the house, but instead he opted to sleep in the apple orchard of the Union Shrivers. He might have been the one who had a late dinner and played games with the kids. I just consulted Longacre's biography of Fitz, but he does not mention Union Mills at all.

    I've been to Union Mills (neat place!) but didn't take the tour. If the docent has Fitz confused with Stuart, I can't say I regret missing it.
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    Sergeant Major (1750+ posts) prroh's Avatar
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    Here is a site that also has several videos that show the Union Mills/Pipe Creeek area.
    http://www.gettysburgdaily.com/?p=4514

    Note that the guide says that Stuart arrived early in the Morning and had a singalong at the Schriver House before reviewing the souts reports. Seems that he was there for longer than a quick breakfast and then gone. Anyway nice video of the area. If he left Westminster around midnight as claimed he would have arrived around 2 -2:30 AM. he left in daylight. Seven miles in the dark is what? 2 1/2 hours, or less depending on moonlight. Chamberliss and Hampton had arrived before dawn. Lee camped around Union Mills so his men would have been reasonably fresh. Hampton, in the rear, must have been dead on his feet. although they did get some rest in Westminster.

    The Schriver Brothers, although on different sides of the CW fence were both slave owners and operated a mill and forge complex. Sargeant Schriver is a direct decendent of one of the brothers. Every time I visit Union Mills, now a park, it seems I meet anothe Schriver. The mill operates its water wheel and mill race and sells flour and meal milled at the site.
    Brgds,
    Pat

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    Captain (5000+ posts) K Hale's Avatar
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    Well, here's something. I just looked at my photos from Union Mills, and I have a photo of one of the waysides there that says Stuart had bivouacked at some place called the Orendorff Farm north of Westminster and arrived at Union Mills at daybreak. That would jibe with the report that says he left at midnight. The US Naval Observatory website says the sun rises at 5:44AM on June 30 in Maryland. If Stuart left at midnight and got to Union Mills at, say, 6AM to be simple, and if it took 2.5 hours to get to Union Mills by daybreak, then he probably got about three hours of sleep, give or take any delays, dinner, feeding the horses, calls of nature...
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    Major (7500+ posts) Elennsar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K Hale
    And he did move on. The fight at Westminster began at 5pm; by 10pm Stuart's people were reaching Union Mills. Some of them had to stay in Westminster to deal with the exigencies there (casualties, forage), but it can't be said that he did not keep the main body moving. You're making it sound like the whole 4,000-some-odd force hung around Westminster for hours, but that isn't what happened.
    Taking over five hours to go seven miles - even considering that men and horses are tired - is pretty leisurely. If the men were not moving (resting, taking care of their horses...) or taking part in the chase of the 1st for a "long distance" (I have no idea what Stuart means, but obviously this wasn't broken off in fifteen minutes)

    Nobody moved leisurely. If the fight started at 5pm and took -- I don't know -- let's say an hour and a half, then it's over by 6:30pm. While some pursue fugitives, others gather forage, which according to Stuart took all night. Also in the mix is caring for the wounded and burying the dead. At some point people have to eat, thousands of horses have to be fed and watered, and Stuart has a meeting with the three brigade leaders. In spite of this, the van reaches Union Mills by 10pm. As people arrived, they set up camp and rested for the night -- AT Union Mills. And then Stuart showed up at daylight. I suppose he may have slept a couple of hours at some point either before leaving Westminster or by stopping somewhere on the road, but nobody "rested for the night" until they got to Union Mills. For example, Fitz Lee arrived at 2am, and was offered a bed but instead camped an apple orchard, and Stuart did not sleep at all after reaching there a few hours later. Stuart hardly slept at any point on the entire campaign.
    How do you explain the 1st Delaware costing Stuart "several hours"? Wittenburg and Petruzzi are very emphatic that the clash took enough time to matter. Both of them know that the care and mantaince of horses (and riders) takes time and effort, and would be necessary at this point whether or not the 1st was anywhere around. So how do you explain it?

    On the Shrivers: Plenty of Blame says that "William was a Southern sympathizer though he owned not a single slave. Andrew, who was a slave owner, however, remained loyal to the Union." (my italics)
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    Brig. General, Mod M E Wolf's Avatar
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    Borrowing from The 1862 Army Officer's Pocket Companion - A Manual for Staff Officers in the Field - Art. 42 "Marches Executed to Assemble Armies." Pg. 93:

    [Excerpt]
    To arrive at the point of general consentration, which is always selected out of reach of the enemy [end of page 92][beginning page 93] to short as well as too long marches are to be avoided. A mean average of twenty (20) miles is the proper measure to adopt, remembering that cavalry can, from time to time, clear as much as thirty (30) miles,, and that infantry ought never to march less than fifteen (15) miles. For both infantry and cavalry one day of rest is sufficient after six or eight days of consecutive marching. It is of importance, when far from the enemy, not to regulate the march of the cavalry by that of the infantry, for it would be prematurely injuring the former.
    [excerpt]
    One hour between the reville and the assembling of troops will enable everyone to make easily all the preparations for departure. The men eat their soup and keep the meat for the halt. The horses take a feed of oats.
    [excerpt]
    Cavalry - Departure at six o'clock, march of forty-five (45) minutes, halt of ten (10) minutes, reconed from the moment when the last division has closed up to its distance to the trumpet's call. The vanguard stops at the same time as the head column; and the rear guard keeps at a proper distance from the rear.
    During the halt the horses have their girths tightened and their feet looked to. Some two and a half (2 1/2) miles having been passed over in this first period of the march the [end page 93][begin page 94] detachment will clear six or seven miles without any new halt, alternatively walking and trotting, in about 100 minutes (1 hour 40 minutes); then it will halt in a proper situation in close column, if possible and half an hour will be allowed the men to break out the meat kept for that purpose. The second half of the distance will be preformed in two (2) intervals of time, divided by a rest of five (5) or six (6) minutes, alternately walking and trotting, as to make five (5) miles in and hour. The destination will thus be reached at eleven o'clock in the forenoon, five hours after departure.
    [end of excerpt]
    ================================================== ============
    So, if the cavalry departs at 6 AM, they should arrive at their destination of 20 miles around 11 o'clock AM.

    If General Stuart was marching at night, it would be slower as the ability of the rider to see is hampered. Horses are able to move a bit better due to their eyes more adapted. What would be interesting would be what kind of Moon they had to work with. A full Moon would provided much needed light.

    Condition of the Cavalry Horse is a huge factor. Mosby was invaluable when it came from gathering (and at times stealing) horses for the Cavalry. The ability to get grain, hay, horseshoes and horseshoe nails was always a supply problem. This also does not factor in when horses suddenly break down, die from exhaustion and or wounds, lameness and their rider's condition.

    Just some thoughts.

    Respectfully submitted for consideration,
    M. E. Wolf

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    Sergeant Major (1750+ posts) prroh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M E Wolf View Post
    Con Mosby was invaluable when it came from gathering (and at times stealing) horses for the Cavalry.
    Mosby's men were extremely well mounted. How much "good stock", or anything else of value did Mosby forward? He did not forward the Army payroll or the watches and rings robbed from civilian train passengers.
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    Pat

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    Captain (5000+ posts) K Hale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elennsar View Post
    Taking over five hours to go seven miles - even considering that men and horses are tired - is pretty leisurely. If the men were not moving (resting, taking care of their horses...) or taking part in the chase of the 1st for a "long distance" (I have no idea what Stuart means, but obviously this wasn't broken off in fifteen minutes)
    It wasn't over five hours. Surely nobody would have been sent on until it was determined that the battle (skirmish, whatever you might call it) was over, people had reassembled, etc. It could not have been more than four hours to go those seven miles, and much of that would have been in the dark.
    How do you explain the 1st Delaware costing Stuart "several hours"? Wittenburg and Petruzzi are very emphatic that the clash took enough time to matter. Both of them know that the care and mantaince of horses (and riders) takes time and effort, and would be necessary at this point whether or not the 1st was anywhere around. So how do you explain it?
    Well, certainly it took enough time to matter. I'm just saying it didn't take MORE time than it should have; i.e., nobody was dragging azz. The clash began as the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th VA entered Westminster at 5pm. Let's say it took an hour. By 6pm people begin to be sent on to Union Mills while others stay and forage, care for the wounded men and horses, bury the dead, or chase fugitives toward Baltimore. The van reaches Union Mills at 10pm. At 12am Stuart and presumably the tail end of the cavalry leave Westminster and arrive at Union Mills 6 hours later at daylight, after having stopped at the Orendorff Farm (wherever that is) for a few hours rest.

    The only time lost was the hours sucked up by the fight itself, its aftermath (wounded, dead, chasing fugitives), and to some extent people would have to be reorganized after the fight although I don't know how long that would have taken. This probably amounts to... I don't know... three hours? Had they pushed through Westminster and only left some folks behind to forage, they could have begun reaching Union Mills by 7pm instead of 10.

    Plus, as has been said, the column itself would have been a couple of miles long. I think longer than that, really. The captured wagons were a couple of miles in themselves, weren't they?
    Last edited by K Hale; 03-15-2010 at 10:26 AM.
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    Sergeant Major (1750+ posts) prroh's Avatar
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    In the OCT 1988 special edition of Blue & Gray magazine entitled Gettysburg Cavalry Operations, Ted Alexander writes a pretty detailed account of Stuart's ride. I is considered a throughly researched piece that I think is prehaps the most reliable. It certainly answers some questions.
    1) Westminister "All the afternoon and until "eleven o'clock at night" [Alexander quoting local reports] observed Phillip Fisher. "Stuart's cavalry in columns eight deep marched through town." The cavalry bivouacked that night all along the Hanover Road north of town . Local accounts say Stuart napped for a while along Main Street, in a chair near the Shellman house [now the Historical Society].

    2) Between 10 and 11p.m[June 29th]. Fitz Lee's brigade arrived at the Shriver homestead at Union Mills, just seven miles north of Westminister and five miles fromthe Pennsylvania line."............ "William's [Shriver and Southern sympathizer] daughters wrote that "by 3 o'clock two or three hundred must have got their supper" at their home. While across the road the Unionist wing of the family less ehthusisticall "just spread bread and handed it to them."

    At daybreak [June 29] Stuart and his staff arrive." Alexander describes the breakfast and songfest then [quoting Shriver family accounts]" General Stuart and [Fitz] Lee and numerous officers frolicked all over and around the home, singing, laughing like boys, while they ran up and down stairs, down to the cellar, goining in and out of its numerous doors and passageways to the amusement and delight of the family."

    As the advance of Chanbliss Brigade met a patrol of the 6th PA Cavalry at a little before 10 AM three miles southwest of Hanover it it safe to say that move from Union Mills did not start until after 8 AM.

    So it was Fitz Lee not Stuart who arrived late at night at the Shriver homestead, while Stuart arrived at daybreak and appears to have spent several hours, singing, "frolicking" and, breakfasting and the serious business of making plans to evade the Federals to his rear, Gregg's cavalry division had entered Westminister at daybreak and avoiding Kilpatrick, at Littlestown less than ten miles north.

    Sorry for the mixup. So the docent was right about Stuart playing "hide and go seek" with the Shriver girls.

    The delays at Rockville were maybe no more than two hours each and the stop at Brookville (about eight mile north of Rockville)on the night of the 28th of June was a necessary respite for hores and men. Westminster, about eighteen mles north of Brookville, was also a logical rest stop where plentiful forage was collected
    Brgds,
    Pat

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    Captain (5000+ posts) K Hale's Avatar
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    Local accounts say Stuart napped for a while along Main Street, in a chair near the Shellman house [now the Historical Society].
    I saw that, but I kind of discounted it because that's the report that has Stuart leaving at 7am, which is impossible because he was north of Union Mills on his way to Hanover by 9.

    At daybreak [June 29] Stuart and his staff arrive." Alexander describes the breakfast and songfest then [quoting Shriver family accounts]" General Stuart and [Fitz] Lee and numerous officers frolicked all over and around the home, singing, laughing like boys, while they ran up and down stairs, down to the cellar, goining in and out of its numerous doors and passageways to the amusement and delight of the family."
    Whoa. Sleep deprivation does some funny things to one's mental state. I have not heard this part of it before; I'll have to see if I can get a copy of that magazine.

    As the advance of Chanbliss Brigade met a patrol of the 6th PA Cavalry at a little before 10 AM three miles southwest of Hanover it it safe to say that move from Union Mills did not start until after 8 AM.
    That sounds right, because by 9am Fitz was sending a note to Stuart that he had seen Kilpatrick's cavalry moving towards Hanover.
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    Sergeant Major (1750+ posts) prroh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K Hale View Post
    I saw that, but I kind of discounted it because that's the report that has Stuart leaving at 7am, which is impossible because he was north of Union Mills on his way to Hanover by 9.


    Whoa. Sleep deprivation does some funny things to one's mental state. I have not heard this part of it before; I'll have to see if I can get a copy of that magazine.


    That sounds right, because by 9am Fitz was sending a note to Stuart that he had seen Kilpatrick's cavalry moving towards Hanover.
    The Library of Congress and University of Notre Dame both hold collections of Shriver family papers.
    Call Ted Alexander at the NPS office at the Antietam Battlefield park. Knowing Ted, he would likely have a a coupy or two of that truly interesting special edition. He also wrote a special edition on Antietam that is also excellent and Ted has a number for sale.
    Brgds,
    Pat

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    Major (7500+ posts) Elennsar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K Hale View Post
    It wasn't over five hours. Surely nobody would have been sent on until it was determined that the battle (skirmish, whatever you might call it) was over, people had reassembled, etc. It could not have been more than four hours to go those seven miles, and much of that would have been in the dark.
    Even four hours - in the dark or not - is not moving any too quickly (lacking information on moonlight, I'm assuming a night of enough light to not be total darkness but far from a full moon - somewhere in the middle. Also, since this is the end of June, it should still be light until after seven, though anything more exact would require information I lack.)

    Well, certainly it took enough time to matter. I'm just saying it didn't take MORE time than it should have; i.e., nobody was dragging azz. The clash began as the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th VA entered Westminster at 5pm. Let's say it took an hour. By 6pm people begin to be sent on to Union Mills while others stay and forage, care for the wounded men and horses, bury the dead, or chase fugitives toward Baltimore. The van reaches Union Mills at 10pm. At 12am Stuart and presumably the tail end of the cavalry leave Westminster and arrive at Union Mills 6 hours later at daylight, after having stopped at the Orendorff Farm (wherever that is) for a few hours rest.

    The only time lost was the hours sucked up by the fight itself, its aftermath (wounded, dead, chasing fugitives), and to some extent people would have to be reorganized after the fight although I don't know how long that would have taken. This probably amounts to... I don't know... three hours? Had they pushed through Westminster and only left some folks behind to forage, they could have begun reaching Union Mills by 7pm instead of 10.

    Plus, as has been said, the column itself would have been a couple of miles long. I think longer than that, really. The captured wagons were a couple of miles in themselves, weren't they?
    I'm not sure offhand how long the wagon train was, though long enough to be a nussiance.

    Assuming the fight took an hour for the sake of calculation (and started at five sharp), the other four hours (from the end of the fight to reaching Union Mills) are on Stuart's shoulders to manage efficiently (not just covering as much ground as possible, but that is one of the issues).

    Assuming dusk was at about eight PM, that leaves two hours of daylight and two of night between the end of the engagement and the van reaching Union Mills.

    Stuart pursued the fugitives for a "long distance" in his words, which must have used up a fair amount of time.

    That it would take two hours (maybe more, depending on the length of the fight) to reorganize Fitz Lee's brigade, pursue the fugitives, and deal with the dead and wounded from a skirmish does seem to be an efficient use of time for a commander in need of haste.
    Though Duty's face is stern, her path is best:
    They sweetly sleep who die upon her breast.

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    Sergeant Major (1750+ posts) prroh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elennsar View Post
    Even four hours - in the dark or not - is not moving any too quickly (lacking information on moonlight, I'm assuming a night of enough light to not be total darkness but far from a full moon - somewhere in the middle. Also, since this is the end of June, it should still be light until after seven, though anything more exact would require information I lack.)

    They had moved about 19-20 miles from Brookville since the morning. They needed to stop somewhere in the Westinister area to gather forage, snooze a bit , water and feed animals. If Capt Corbit hadn't made his gallant charge Stuart would still have stopped between Weastminister and Union Mills. On the nigt of June 29th - 30 Stuart had no reason to believeplans had changed and time was crucial.


    I'm not sure offhand how long the wagon train was, though long enough to be a nussiance.

    At 125 captured wagons and maybe a like amount in supply chain. That would be about 2 1/2 to 3 miles long. in single file, athough much of the Baltimore Pike would allow for tandem wagons. Lets all it two miles , plus the cavalry of about two miles a four mile column.
    Assuming the fight took an hour for the sake of calculation (and started at five sharp), the other four hours (from the end of the fight to reaching Union Mills) are on Stuart's shoulders to manage efficiently (not just covering as much ground as possible, but that is one of the issues).

    Assuming dusk was at about eight PM, that leaves two hours of daylight and two of night between the end of the engagement and the van reaching Union Mills.

    That seems true Fitz Lee starts arriving around ten PM after gathering forage and feeding and watering men and animals.

    Stuart pursued the fugitives for a "long distance" in his words, which must have used up a fair amount of time.

    There were less than 40 fugitves to pursue and they stoppped at Reisserstown maybe 15 miles away. Were they chased by a company or part of a regiment? Certainly not three brigades..


    That it would take two hours (maybe more, depending on the length of the fight) to reorganize Fitz Lee's brigade, pursue the fugitives, and deal with the dead and wounded from a skirmish does seem to be an efficient use of time for a commander in need of haste.
    Based on his arrival at Union Mills 10PM, Lee must have left around 8 - 8:30 PM. Meanwhile forage had been gathered , men and horses watered and rested for an hour or so.

    Lee arrived at Union Mills for the night maybe 1 1/2 hours ater he might have , if Corbit hadn't made his charge. The other two brigades were strung out on the road to Union Mills for a few hours rest.

    Where should Stuart's three brigades have been at 8 AM on June 30th?
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    Major (7500+ posts) Elennsar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prroh
    There were less than 40 fugitves to pursue and they stoppped at Reisserstown maybe 15 miles away. Were they chased by a company or part of a regiment? Certainly not three brigades..
    But the three brigades do not seem to have moved onward (with the men chasing told to "catch up as soon as you can"), so whether 4,000 men or 400 chased them is a minor detail in terms of the delay.

    Based on his arrival at Union Mills 10PM, Lee must have left around 8 - 8:30 PM. Meanwhile forage had been gathered , men and horses watered and rested for an hour or so.

    Lee arrived at Union Mills for the night maybe 1 1/2 hours ater he might have , if Corbit hadn't made his charge. The other two brigades were strung out on the road to Union Mills for a few hours rest.

    Where should Stuart's three brigades have been at 8 AM on June 30th?
    If Stuart chased the 1st Delaware Cavalry for five to ten miles (say with a regiment or two - Stuart's report does not say), that would be ten to twenty miles total, which would cost Stuart easily over two hours.

    Thusly, that was time wasted.

    Certainly not a major affair, but given the time crunch, major enough.

    There is no specific location Stuart should have been at 8 AM on the 30th, but he needed to be closer to Ewell rather than fur-ther from him.
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    Sergeant Major (1750+ posts) prroh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elennsar View Post
    There is no specific location Stuart should have been at 8 AM on the 30th, but he needed to be closer to Ewell rather than fur-ther from him.
    Mostly caused by the bum intel from Mosby that cost a day and a half. Why talk about an hour here or there and ignore the late start, thanks to Mosby?
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    Sergeant Major (1750+ posts) prroh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elennsar View Post
    But the three brigades do not seem to have moved onward (with the men chasing told to "catch up as soon as you can"), so whether 4,000 men or 400 chased them is a minor detail in terms of the delay.



    If Stuart chased the 1st Delaware Cavalry for five to ten miles (say with a regiment or two - Stuart's report does not say), that would be ten to twenty miles total, which would cost Stuart easily over two hours.

    Thusly, that was time wasted.

    Certainly not a major affair, but given the time crunch, major enough.

    .
    So the much needed rest and replenishment to exhauseted men and animals was time wasted.

    Fitz Lee moved out around 8PM for the seven mile ride to Union Mills. The fight with Corbit and his men was over around six. Feed the animals, etc and off at 8 seems lke little wasted time. Lee would likely have stopped at Union Mills around 8 had there been no fight at Westminster. Chamblis set out from Union Mills around eight. he was in the middle of the column, behind Lee and had stopped for the night between Westminster and Union Mills. Dont see the big delay..
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    Major (7500+ posts) Elennsar's Avatar
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    Because the time cost in the incidents refered to was lost by Stuart's poor decisions. He cannot be held responsible for Mosby's failures, but he can and should be held accountable for the mistakes he made (as well as congradulated for handling the ride on the whole skillfully - the balance sheet is heavily in his favor, the rest is merely a matter of the details).

    The fact that other men deserve more blame for "What went wrong" should not be used to shield Stuart from any blame. He made mistakes and poor decisions.

    For instance, Early all but ignored the fighting at Hanover, not even giving token investigation - which surely had a more direct effect on when Stuart would manage to link up with Lee.

    However, had Stuart been fur-ther along than he was historically, it would have been that much easier for him to join up despite Early's bungling.

    A few precious hours might have made all the difference there, even with Early having bungled.

    Mosby not bungling would alter the position of the riders considerably.

    Would Stuart have done more raiding since he then really would have reason to feel confident in having time to do so? Maybe. If so, that would have its own consequences, which might have lead to a further delay (I can't say, so I'm hesitant to comment on Mosby's bad performance)

    I am more concerned with seeing how others explain it than with changing opinions (as we agree on the overall analysis, as best as I can tell), so as long as my position makes sense and doesn't come off as petty arguement, I'm content.

    And darn jealous of Lee for having a cavalryman like Stuart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prroh
    So the much needed rest and replenishment to exhauseted men and animals was time wasted.
    No. The time spent dealing with the 1st Delaware was wasted. That took up "several hours" above and beyond the time needed to rest and feed the men and animals after a day's riding.

    "The head of Stuart's column...approached Westerminster from the east bewteen 4:00 and 5:00 on June 29."

    That means if it ended at six, Stuart spent almost two hours dealing with less than a hundred green cavalrymen.

    I cannot tell from your wording that "the fight with Corbit and his men was over around six." if you're counting the pursuit, which would have taken some time (probably more than the "brief but stubborn" fight itself).
    Last edited by Elennsar; 03-15-2010 at 10:10 PM.
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    Having read this I see no reason for applauding Stuart, he may have rode fast, unfortunately for the ANV he rode the wrong way. You must feel Ewell's Corp, it couldn't be clearer. Instead he manages to get within a stone's throw of Washington and gets the entire AOP between him and his army he's supposed to be feeling the edge of. Giving Stuart credit for not sleeping is nonsense and possibly explains some of his bad decision making. Act in haste, repent in leisure. I have an interesting map that highlights this but don't know if putting it up would breach copyright, if a mod could pm me I will discuss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBrigade View Post
    Having read this I see no reason for applauding Stuart, he may have rode fast, unfortunately for the ANV he rode the wrong way. You must feel Ewell's Corp, it couldn't be clearer. Instead he manages to get within a stone's throw of Washington and gets the entire AOP between him and his army he's supposed to be feeling the edge of. Giving Stuart credit for not sleeping is nonsense and possibly explains some of his bad decision making. Act in haste, repent in leisure. I have an interesting map that highlights this but don't know if putting it up would breach copyright, if a mod could pm me I will discuss.
    Stuart was ordered to cross the river (where he saw fit) and do the enemy all the damage he could. Then to move to feel Ewell's flank.

    He did so. Ignoring the instructions to "do all the damage you can" and handing him freedom to determine where he crossed the river to focus solely on "feel Ewell's corps" is misconstruing his orders.
    Though Duty's face is stern, her path is best:
    They sweetly sleep who die upon her breast.

    Henry Abbey, "The Roman Sentinel"

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    So he crossed at one of the most Easterly crossings and continued east with hinderance. I don't see how given the orders he was given that he could have done what he did do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBrigade View Post
    So he crossed at one of the most Easterly crossings and continued east with hinderance. I don't see how given the orders he was given that he could have done what he did do.
    Because the orders he was given permit him to use his judgment on where he crosses and do not require him to immediately join up with Ewell dropping everything else.
    Though Duty's face is stern, her path is best:
    They sweetly sleep who die upon her breast.

    Henry Abbey, "The Roman Sentinel"

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    Then it would be correct to say his judgement was poor and/or impaired due to lack of sleep and exhaustion, or maybe he had other considerations that he was trying to fit into Lee's orders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBrigade View Post
    Then it would be correct to say his judgement was poor and/or impaired due to lack of sleep and exhaustion, or maybe he had other considerations that he was trying to fit into Lee's orders.
    If you can - based on the knowledge Stuart had to work with - point to a better route that would have fulfilled his orders in full better than the route he did take, I would like to see it.

    If we're simply skipping everything except "feel Ewell's flank", then we can't reasonably account for what time should have been spent raiding and doing damage vs. the time he did spend.

    And that will inevitably skew conclusions unfairly against Stuart.
    Though Duty's face is stern, her path is best:
    They sweetly sleep who die upon her breast.

    Henry Abbey, "The Roman Sentinel"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elennsar View Post
    If you can - based on the knowledge Stuart had to work with - point to a better route that would have fulfilled his orders in full better than the route he did take, I would like to see it.

    If we're simply skipping everything except "feel Ewell's flank", then we can't reasonably account for what time should have been spent raiding and doing damage vs. the time he did spend.

    And that will inevitably skew conclusions unfairly against Stuart.
    Exactly. I can see there is an obsession afoot to get Stuart back to Ewell's side almost immediately after he leaves Rector's Cross Roads, while absolutely ignoring every other aspect of his orders. Since it's now known that it would take a much longer time for this to happen than Stuart and Lee had planned before June 25, I can only say that hindsight is truly 20/20. Funny how that can't be applied to Robert E. Lee's decision making, only to Stuart's.

    I, too, would like to see a route he could have taken that would have gotten him to Ewell's side in 2 days while also carrying out all aspects of his orders... ALL aspects, not cherry-picking one based on knowing how things turned out in the end. To anyone who desires to attempt this, I say, good luck with that.
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