CBF & Black Southerners

[johan_steele]

Does the CBF and Southern Pride have a different meaning to black southerners than white?

[ole]

Need a few more choices, Shane.
Ole

[blue_zouave]

My choice is not listed above:

"The CBF means something different to each individual, regardless of race."

Zou

[johan_steele]

OK, now I'm aggravated... I set this poll up this morn then ran off to work... it's missing 3 more choices. I can't edit the cursed thing... My apologies everyone; I may ask Ami to delete the thing so I can start over.

5. It holds a different meaning for each individual.
6. The CBF was coopted by the KKK & other organizations.
7. The CBF will forever stand for making a difficult stand, right or wrong.

[gary]

The flag means different things to different people. Some Black Southerners (and some whites too) are offended because it may be seen as a symbol of racism. I concede that they are partially correct since the KKK and Neo-nazis used it - much to the detriment of the Civil War Community. The Civil War Community views it from a more historical perspective. Nothing wrong with seeing it at a museum or a reenactment. It is altogether fitting and proper that it is and omitting it would put a heavy political correct (and heavily biased) interpretation of hystery.

But wiser minds than mine have already spoken on this subject. Dr. John Coski answered that question with his book, The Embattled Emblem. It was too intellectual for me. I'd rather read something about peepul shooting other peepul. I have the Honour, Sirs, to be

Yours in Neantherdalhood,

Gary the Barbarian meat eater.

[Vareb]

That is a right nice poll.

[Elennsar]

#8: It is a symbol of a "nation" which is a black mark in American history (if by no means the only one) and an enemy of the United States.

Quotes as the Confederacy was not officially recognized, and therefore was not legally a legitimate nation yet.

That said, there are places it is fitting...a reenactment most certainly should have it flying, just as a reenactment of WWI should have German (Imperial) flags, or for that matter, the WWII flag in a WWII reenactment.

It however serves no other purpose. Using it outside this context is using it as a symbol of something. The Confederate flag has rarely been a symbol of something something positively inclined towards either the United States or nonwhites.

Yours with respect to those Southerners (past and present) whose honor is above question or as close to it as any human can be,

Elennsar

[Scribe]

Need a few more choices, Shane.
Ole

Agreed.....

[johan_steele]

Their was a "corrected" version, no idea if it's even still here.

[diddyriddick]

At the risk of being a killjoy, there is no way that any of us can understand black aversion to the CBF, any more than we can understand the visceral reaction that Jews have to the hakenkreuz. Right or wrong, blacks feel that the symbol of the CBF is hurtful. Living in the rural south, I can tell you that rednecks fly the Stars and Bars here as a symbol to celebrate their white heritage.

I would love to hear an african-american viewpoint here. Because lets face it; we on this forum are about as lily-white as it is possible to be.

Just my opinion.

[ole]

And it's a pretty dang good opinion. Although I suspect we have a few African-Americans among us, I'm grateful that we don't care enough to ask.

On another thread we learned of the flap in Memphis about removing the Forrest statue and his bones!!!! from a cemetery there. This is playing the "I'm offended" card into ridiculous territory. Working racism into either side of an argument offends the hell out of me. We ought to be above that.

And here I'm treading on dangerous ground. Disregard everything I just said.

ole

[johan_steele]

There are/were four black men active on this site and my wife listens to my gripes and growls on a daily basis... trust me gents you do not want her take on the CBF and the Lost Cause.

"As a flag over a statue on the statehouse lawn dedicated to the men that's cool; over the dome, shameful. The only reason it was put there in the first place was to put a stick in the eye of the civil rights movement." Paraphrased of my wife

[diddyriddick]

It sounds like Mrs. Steele is pretty smart. Keep her!

[Vareb]

There are/were four black men active on this site and my wife listens to my gripes and growls on a daily basis... trust me gents you do not want her take on the CBF and the Lost Cause.

"As a flag over a statue on the statehouse lawn dedicated to the men that's cool; over the dome, shameful. The only reason it was put there in the first place was to put a stick in the eye of the civil rights movement." Paraphrased of my wife

Some men have women to run their lives. Most of those need it.

[Vareb]

Maybe some of you here can get your wives to help you figure out how many slaves were carried to Americas under the Flag of the Confederacy versus under the Union flag.

[johan_steele]

The wife's ancestor came over on the Wanderer, do you know the story?

Her family lived under the terrorism of the Klan for generations... what flag do you suppose they consider the Klan flag? Do tell, I'd be amused to watch you tell a 90+ year old woman, who has lived through it, she doesn't know what she's talking about. To quote a young Southern Lady from another bord... I can almost hear it: "Bless his soul, the boy don't have a clue does he?"

[johan_steele]

It sounds like Mrs. Steele is pretty smart. Keep her!

Women are evil, money is good and love is the end of all happiness. Though that is coming from a happily wedded man. She even has me housebroke.

[ole]

Some men have women to run their lives. Most of those need it.

A double-dog amen, Vareb. We might pretend that we don't need it, but a good woman in one's life is a godsend. "The hand that rocks the cradle .... etc."

ole

[Vareb]

The wife's ancestor came over on the Wanderer, do you know the story?

Sure do. Under what flag?

Her family lived under the terrorism of the Klan for generations...

Sorry to hear that. But I will lay you odds at early on they used the Union flag.

what flag do you suppose they consider the Klan flag?

Read the above.

Do tell, I'd be amused to watch you tell a 90+ year old woman, who has lived through it, she doesn't know what she's talking about.

Oh, I have seen it to. But suppose you take a look at the flag that was used when she was growing up. You don't have to read that crap but scroll down and take a look.

http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/kkk.htm
http://www.rulen.com/kkk/

To quote a young Southern Lady from another bord... I can almost hear it: "Bless his soul, the boy don't have a clue does he?"

Is that directed at me?

I think the KKK is a nasty blight on America! They use the Confederate Flag as a symbol of hate but that didn't happen until 20, 30 years ago. Before that, it was the good old US of A flag they used.

[ole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by johan_steele
The wife's ancestor came over on the Wanderer, do you know the story?

Sure do. Under what flag?

You're better than this, Vareb. You know doggone well what flag the Wanderer flew when her southern owners flaunted the laws to convert her into a slave ship and to deliver some more than 400 surviving captives to Jekyl Island.

How the "Wanderer" managed to elude the port authorities and the squadrons off the African coast is a fascinating read. What is particularly interesting is the (later) secesh in the Federal government trying to track her down and prosecute the owners.

And all you got out of the book is "What Flag." Pitiful.

ole

[johan_steele]

Sure do. Under what flag?

Read the book, if you really believe she was a US sponsored ship... I've got some vertical property along the Mississippi to sell you. As soon as the slaveocracy came to believe their precious institution was no longer safe under the US flag they made their own.

Sorry to hear that. But I will lay you odds at early on they used the Union flag. Really, are you certain the night riders carried a US flag? Care to wager? I asked Mammie, her reply was that the first US flag she saw in relation to klan activities was when the Legion buried her father, and presented a US flag in thanks for his service... the klan showed up to protest a black man getting a funeral w/ military honors. His stone was destroyed a week or two later. That was in the 30's, not the 70-80's.



Read the above. I have, and I'm trying desperately not to laugh.


Oh, I have seen it to. But suppose you take a look at the flag that was used when she was growing up. You don't have to read that crap but scroll down and take a look. Joy, more klan crap. I've taken a shower once today I don't feel the pressing need to have to take another. Do you really think those men under Forrest were carrying a US flag? I doubt it.

http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/kkk.htm
http://www.rulen.com/kkk/





Is that directed at me? I don't know, is it?

I think the KKK is a nasty blight on America! They use the Confederate Flag as a symbol of hate but that didn't happen until 20, 30 years ago. Before that, it was the good old US of A flag they used.

No it wasn't. In the 50's it was the CBF as often or more than the US and in the 60's many also added the swatsika. So your math is off by at leat 30 years. I never heard of a CBF flying over any Civil Right gatherings... have you? It's fairly clear to me which flag is forever equated w/ the klan. As a hint, it isn't the stars and stripes. There is no doubt in my mind which flag the black population of the South equate with the Klan.

[Vareb]

No it wasn't. In the 50's it was the CBF as often or more than the US and in the 60's many also added the swatsika. So your math is off by at leat 30 years. I never heard of a CBF flying over any Civil Right gatherings... have you? It's fairly clear to me which flag is forever equated w/ the klan. As a hint, it isn't the stars and stripes. There is no doubt in my mind which flag the black population of the South equate with the Klan.

OK. So I am wrong. You didn't answer my question I first posed to you. What flag was the Wanderer flying?

I am truly sorry about what your granma went through. Them was hard days. But don't try to convince me the US flag is pure as far as slavery is concerned.

"The Wanderer was built in a Long Island shipyard in 1857 as a pleasure craft yacht for Colonel John Johnson. She was built to be one of the most impressive pleasure crafts in the world. This was clearly demonstrated as her simple and streamlined design allowed the ship to achieve speeds of up to 20 knots, making Wanderer one of the fastest ships of the day. While on a trip to New Orleans, Johnson stopped in Charleston and subsequently sold the Wanderer to William C. Corrie. The Wanderer returned to New York and was being prepared for a long voyage when she was accused of being a slave ship. The ship was inspected and cleared; however, public rumors of being involved in the slave trade were thereafter permanently associated with her name."

[johan_steele]

The Wanderer flew US, Brit, Portugese & I believe Dutch flags in her short career.

[Vareb]

The Wanderer flew US, Brit, Portugese & I believe Dutch flags in her short career.

Thanks. Sorry you got all upset over this. I was just showing how it was with the American Flag as well as the Flag of the Confederacy. Neither one is lily white.

[unionblue]

OK. So I am wrong. You didn't answer my question I first posed to you. What flag was the Wanderer flying?

I am truly sorry about what your granma went through. Them was hard days. But don't try to convince me the US flag is pure as far as slavery is concerned.

"The Wanderer was built in a Long Island shipyard in 1857 as a pleasure craft yacht for Colonel John Johnson. She was built to be one of the most impressive pleasure crafts in the world. This was clearly demonstrated as her simple and streamlined design allowed the ship to achieve speeds of up to 20 knots, making Wanderer one of the fastest ships of the day. While on a trip to New Orleans, Johnson stopped in Charleston and subsequently sold the Wanderer to William C. Corrie. The Wanderer returned to New York and was being prepared for a long voyage when she was accused of being a slave ship. The ship was inspected and cleared; however, public rumors of being involved in the slave trade were thereafter permanently associated with her name."

From the book, The American Slave Trade, by John R. Spears, Chapter XIX, Latter-Day Slave Smugglers, pg. 199-201:

"According to the records of the New York Yacht Club, the Wanderer was built by James G. Baylis, at Port Jefferson, L.I., for Mr. J. D. Johnson, a wealthy member of the club. She was launched in June, 1857. Her dimensions were: Length over all 104 feet; keel, 95; beam, 26.5; depth of hold, 10.5; draught, 10.5. Her mainmast was 84 feet long and its topmast 35. The main boom was 65 feet long, and its gaff and the main gaff 35. The bowsprit was 23 feet outboard.

Captain Thomas Hawkins superintended her while on the blocks, and "to hear him tell it," said on of his friends to me, "you'd think she could fly instead of sailing." He added: "She was, however, a very fast schooner." A beautiful painting of the Wanderer hangs in the Yacht Club's reception room at this writing (1900).

Mr. Johnson sold the schooner to Captain W. C. Corrie, who was elected a member of the New York Yacht Club on May 29, 1858, and he sailed for the South with her at once. Under the rules of the club Corrie was Captain of the yacht. Her sailing master was a brother of the late Admiral Semmes, of the Confederate navy. Captain Corrie took her to Charleston, and there cleared out for Trinidad, as if on a pleasure voyage, although, as a matter of fact, she had a slaver outfit in her hold. Captain Egbert Farnham, a man of an adventurous career--he had been a famous overland rider in his time, and, it is said, one of Walker's Nicaragua filibusters--went along as supercargo.

From Trinidad the Wanderer went to St. Helena, and thence to the Congo River. She was still flying the American flag and that of the New York Yacht Club, of course, and when the British war-ship Medusa was found cruising for slavers on the Congo coast, Captain Corrie ran alongside and remained with her several days (according to the newspapers), during which he entertained the British officers with the best he had, and was in turn entertained in royal fashion on the war-ship. Places of interest ashore were visited in company. There was a race with a British yacht off the coast, in which, of course, the Wanderer won handsomely.

Farnham told the reporters, after his return, that on one occasion, after the wine had mellowed the British officers sufficiently, they were invited to inspect the Wanderer to see whether she was not a slaver, whereat the whold party laughed joyously. The idea that such a magnificent floating palace as the Wanderer was to be used as a slavery did seem extremely ridiculous to them. Then the British sailed away and the Wanderer slipped away up the Congo to the barracoons.

The owners of the Wanderer, besides Corrie, were Charles A. L. Lamar, of Savannah; N. C. Trowbridge, of New Orleans; Captain A. C. McGhee, of Columbus, GA; Richard Dickerson, of Richmond, VA, and Benjamin Davis, of Charleston, SC. Captain McGhee, in an interview with a correspondent of the New York Sun, printed four or five year ago, said that the cargo purchased consisted chiefly of young negroes from thirteen to eighteen years of age, and that seven hundred and fifty were taken on board.

That she go clear of the slave-coast with a full load is beyond doubt. The exact date of her arrival on the Georgia coast is not known, but it was not far from December 2, 1858. The first mention of the matter in print is found in the Savannah Republican of December 11th of that year, wherein it is asserted that her cargo was landed "in the neighborhood of St. Andrews Sound, near Brunswick," and that "part of her cargo was subsequently sent up Saltilla River on board a steamer."

The Savannah Republican said a few days later that it had heard "that slaves were landed on Jekyl Island, for which privilege, it is said, the negro traders paid $15,000, and that a steamboat from this city went down and brought one hundred and fifty of them past Savannah and up the river to a plantation from whence they were scattered over the country."

Captain McGhee tells how this was done:

"The most difficult part of the voyage was to get into port. The only way to enter the mouth of the Savannah River was under the black muzzles of the guns of the fort, and it would have been madness to attempt to enter with that contraband cargo into the mouth of the Great Ogeechee by night and ascended the river to the big swamp, and there lay concealed while he communicated with Lamar in Savannah.

Lamar thereupon announced that he was going to give a grand ball in honor of the officers and garrison of the fort, and insisted that the soldiers, as well as their superiors, should partake of the good cheer. When the gayety was at its height the Wanderer stole into the river and passed the guns of the fort unchallenged in the darkness and made her way to Lamar's plantations, some distance up the river. The human cargo was soon disembarked and placed under the charge of the old rice-field negroes, who were nearly as savage as the new importations."

The point is, Vareb, ANYONE could procur an American flag and fly it from the mainmast. Most slavers, no matter what country of origin, flew an American flag as British ships were not allowed to search American flagged ships for slaves under treaty agreement. Here we see the clear evidence that Southerners financed and led the operation in order to bring back a cargo of slaves.

So who in your opinion, is the more evil, the procurer of slaves who finance the ship from the North to capture slaves or the Northern shipbuilders who built the Wanderer?

And you are correct in your assesment that no matter who carried the slaves to their buyers or who bought and owned them, neither was lilly white.

In my view, the pusher who supplies the drugs is just as guilty as the user who steals, robs, or murders, to get the money to buy the drugs. Both have broken the law, both should be held accountable.

Unionblue