Confederate uniform help??

[lwhite64]

In regards to fading, we did an experiment a few summers ago at Chickamauga with some uniforms dyed with a period sumac dye and after one month it had gone from a dark gray to almost khaki color, add to that sweat and dust and other staining.
Also, as to uniforms one thing to remember is that a soldier would look different from campaign to campaign and from battle to battle because of the nature of the CS Quartermaster system, as well as being able to suppliment that with clothing from home, Ladies Aid Socities, as well as state operations.

Lee

[Mark Wadsworth]

Bama46, you are correct . Well Butternut is a true color, but it is also can be used for the faded gray turned tan as well. It is a term that many use both ways.
Trust me, I have to talk to folk all the time and figure out just what they mean by butternut.
Many of the terms that we use while talking about uniforms get mixed up with folks using them in other ways. I have to talk to each customer to find out what they really want and to make sure everyone is on the same sheet of music. Cutting the wrong fabric is costly.

[larry_cockerham]

Bama46, you are correct . Well Butternut is a true color, but it is also can be used for the faded gray turned tan as well. It is a term that many use both ways.
Trust me, I have to talk to folk all the time and figure out just what they mean by butternut.
Many of the terms that we use while talking about uniforms get mixed up with folks using them in other ways. I have to talk to each customer to find out what they really want and to make sure everyone is on the same sheet of music. Cutting the wrong fabric is costly.

Gentlemen, you have advanced my meager knowledge. You're not the first to do it and hopefully not the last. My regards.

[ole]

Interesting. All this talk of fading and cloth and clothes.

I had thought that butternut was a color you got by soaking the fabric in a solution containing black-walnut husks. Never really thought about fading. Takes about a week to get the stain off your fingers. Guess it would take about the same amount of time for the fabric to lose some color.

Roll on, guys. There's always something new out there, isn't there? Interesting.

Ole

[101combatvet]

Well, I have spoken to a few textile researchers and historians and according to them natural dies held up better then some of the synthetic ones made later. I have also examined several period Confederate butternut pieces over the years and some of them looked as the color card I posted. Fading would have more to do with the way a garment was stored over the last 150 years then when it was being wore during the war.

[johan_steele]

101, a question you may know thw answer to If I may? The butternut you've lookled at was it on wool or jean wool, cotton etc? I'm curious if you know the difference in wear & fade w/ period dyes between the various materials. I've had the opportunity to study several original pieces, though alomost all were various shades of blue and the fade compared to darker colors was dramaticly different, I've never gotten a straight answer as to why that might be. The original zouve trousers I studied had faded to an almost pink, but an original Frock looked as blue as the day it had been issued. Both had seen some field service and had provenance to the tail end of the war.

[101combatvet]

I have a few cloth items in my collection.... a pair of Zouave trousers which has been examined by a few experts.... the conclusion was that they are Confederate. They are in fact red with a blue stripe and do not appear to be faded. I have a Confederate canteen covered with the butternut jean material you speak of.... it has some fading but not what I would call excessive. To be more direct I have seen both types of butternut material and the examples I have seen appear to have little fading. The jean material examples I have seen and these are generally mid to late war showed what would appear to be light fading but I believe this to be more the appearance of the fabric then actual fading. An example of an Officers frock coat comes to mind.... that may be published in the better known books. This example came out of Louisiana in a thrift shop years ago.... no buttons but the new owner added Louisiana pelican buttons to it. I also have a kepi made from a blue jean material which has a yellow/tan material weaved within, it has no fading or very little. In conclusion the jean material may not have held the dyes as well as other material thus they have the appearance of fading as in the example of the kepi. I'm not an expert on cloth so all disclaimers apply... I hope this answers your question.

101, a question you may know thw answer to If I may? The butternut you've lookled at was it on wool or jean wool, cotton etc? I'm curious if you know the difference in wear & fade w/ period dyes between the various materials. I've had the opportunity to study several original pieces, though alomost all were various shades of blue and the fade compared to darker colors was dramaticly different, I've never gotten a straight answer as to why that might be. The original zouve trousers I studied had faded to an almost pink, but an original Frock looked as blue as the day it had been issued. Both had seen some field service and had provenance to the tail end of the war.

[johan_steele]

Gives me somethying to look at,thanks 101. It's just not something I know anything about.

[larry_cockerham]

Gives me somethying to look at,thanks 101. It's just not something I know anything about.

At our Franklin 'funeral' service yesterday, I met a young man from Louisiana, who was dressed in green with red trim on the front of his uniform and a cap with a more or less flat top and bill. He explained that the green material was used extensively in the low country of Louisana during the early part of the war. I didn't get good details from him, so I don't know a thing about fabrics, or much else.

[101combatvet]

I would not at all be surprised. Many northern units wore cadet gray.... and I have heard that some southern units wore blue. The variety of uniforms used by both sides could fill volumes.

At our Franklin 'funeral' service yesterday, I met a young man from Louisiana, who was dressed in green with red trim on the front of his uniform and a cap with a more or less flat top and bill. He explained that the green material was used extensively in the low country of Louisana during the early part of the war. I didn't get good details from him, so I don't know a thing about fabrics, or much else.

[Mark Wadsworth]

To make cadet gray wool. They took equal parts black , naturial and indigo wool and spun them in to the yarn. Cadet is not a dyed wool. If you look closely you can see the fibers are mixed colors. Some of the yarn is mixed finer then others but you can still tell.
The Woolrich Cadet wool yarn looks like it has been dyed. I am not really a fan of the wool nylon blend but it does make a very sturdy pair of trousers.

[sf46]

The idea of the butternut being taboo varies from region to region and unit to unit. I've been to some events that had no butternut, some a a few pieces here and there, and some with whole units in it.

[Mark Wadsworth]

I prefer iron dyed to butternut. It's easier and cheaper to dye

[Paul Fox]

I was a dyer by trade. Even with synthetic dyes, some are more light fast than others. Red is very light sensitive. Wool dyed fabric is the most color fast as to material. Hence the expression, 'dyed in the wool'. The best dyed Confederate uniform cloth came from England. They used the same materials in manufacturing of greatcoats for the British service. It was often referred to as English Army Cloth. The Richmond Depot used a lot of this stuff. I understand that they used synthetic dyes. Blue and grey thread were carded together. It was produced in varying shades of blue-grey some were very dark and looked like a dirty version of Union blue. The Tait jackets were also cut from this English Army cloth. There were some jackets shipped over with red trim which was used for British infantry. If you are dying material to be cut for coffin lining light fastness is not an issue! I have thought, but do not know, that units would be supplied at the same time with uniforms from the same place and would look more uniform within their ranks than what modern impressions present???