The Ladies TeaStop in and grab a quick cup of tea! All sorts of ladies issues are disscussed here. Both Ladies and Gentlemen are welcome to join in the conversations.
The parlor permits of very personal discussion. I ask you to consider contributing to it, and not "staying out of it," as you say. It would be our loss if you leave the parlor, never to return.
Of course, if you stubbornly insist, then we will be forced to gossip about where you are going, forced into idle speculation about tea parties in camp and other frivolities (in the poke sack) in the midst of war...
Here is a little gift for you on your return to CWT.
I have a dear male friend for whom I will speak because I know he would have something to say in reply to your infamous post of October 4, paragraph 2.
He would say, "Ah, but the man with the eyes of a sculptor would see the woman in the block of stone; and the marble now warmed under his hands would release the once-stony image, and she would return to life."
Zou,
Your thoughts are both appreciated and solicited. Even though the thoughts expressed here are both heartfelt and personal they are by no means of a private nature and I would hope that all would feel free to comment.
Lass,
As much as we as a society have attempted to open up the career avenues available to individuals the realities of time constraints still make it impossible for anyone to "have it all". Your points are well taken. I would tend to agree with your assessment that we may be at the very low end of the spectrum when it comes to actual understanding between the sexes.
As to love between man and woman and its relative merit...........it is quite beyond my ability to express the ferocity with which I agree. I believe it is possibly the only level of our existence where we have tapped into the wellspring of positive energy at the core of life. It is a direct grounding to our function that both anchors our existence and spins the world around us. It is strength eternal and energy unending and a restful place of perfect peace all at once.
I don't wonder that we bundle up our broken dreams in makeshift fashion and throw ourselves back into the raging seas in search of
love; only that there may be others who refuse the chance and belittle the possibilities.
Err.....in rereading this I see that I have not only went off on a tangent but swept myself completely out to sea. I think I answered your last question though, so I'll leave it to stand as it is.
Zou, do stick around! This thread is by no means a personal conversation. Just look at the number of people involved. It contains at least one extremely refined lady of Southern tendencies if not origins who holds a candle for a Southern hero, one shell-shocked girl of likely Northern inclinations who prefers to think like a warrior and scorn female niceties, and one not-too-bright horse. And I've mentioned only my own various personalities, not the other esteemed participants. (Then again, you might answer that any thread containing a schizoid horse must be avoided anyway, and I could not blame you for it.)
I like this thread because it concerns some of the few remotely CW-related things I feel up to discuss, human nature and ways of life through the ages. For the rest, I can't get within a mile of strategic discussions (dear LL, your very sweet words have been very much appreciated, and it's more likely that from this block of marble emerge a woman than a strategist), I don't know most personalities of the era enough yet, and I'm leery of ethical-political discussions. What's left for me? Some speculations about the basic facts of life for these people who were human (in the best sense, that is living, feeling creatures) and not icons after all.
But how to tackle this subject? Alas, I too sometimes have the feeling I get too personal. And yet I've said I don't like to generalize, so I try to draw from my experience, then recoil once again because I realize my experience can't very well be applied to old times, and vice versa (back then I probably would have been branded hysterical, if the word already existed, and married off as soon as possible to cure my malaise, hopefully to someone nice). But this doesn't stop the discussion from bouncing around in a very interesting way, especially when the gentlemen provide us with unexpected and pleasantly welcome points of view.
So, Zou, at least one facet of my personality is very interested in hearing the opinions of another haversack-wielding gal, just like I feel I have much in common with LL too (and how is dear General Longstreet doing these days?).
I don't know about my general, but I need a break. I think I went off the deep end here. I have an invitation to stay out on a ranch for a while. I'll let you know when I leave.
Besides that, I am going back to the poetry chat where it is really steamy. (This here parlor ain't nothin', despite all Zou's fussin' 'bout a few cookies.)
This website is dominated by southern men - poets. <gasp> I have even been threatened with the virtual "woodshed," designed specifically for recalcitrant females such as myself who need to get "learned" some respect for Milton (whom I hate) and other dead poets who are my betters. I am serious. This is a really hot website, and I am forced into serious discipline (at southern hands <gasp>).
You should find a good website where you can get professional feedback and support on your writing. I am only motivated by love, which most of the time I lack, so I am lazy unless I am forced by a structure with plenty of rigor within to work. I apologize if you do already have a place to take your work.
I do love the parlor, though, and the Dark Prince...
"...the wellspring...at the core of life...a direct grounding to our function that anchors our existence and spins the world around us...strength eternal, energy unending, and a restful place of perfect peace all at once."
Did I thank you for these words? I guess you got the cookies.
LL, I'm too shy and too lazy to do anything serious with my writings, but one never knows!
Back to something I was thinking about yesterday before my computer froze. Men liking women as a group. Did this happen in the '800? I think we must define what we mean by "liking". Once again I'll relate a personal modern experience, for what it's worth. A male friend of mine criticized my intention to take part to re-enactment in male garb because he said that women should not concern themselves with war and bloodshed, albeit fictitious. They have to remain pure and gentle and provide an alternative to the hardships of soldiers' life. He admits he is old-fashioned.
I think this could be a good approximation of male thinking back then. Undoubtedly it reveals a very high concept of women. Probably too high; and it puts into a different perspective what we said about female subordination. It's almost like women were not really subordinated, just "removed" from certain fields, if you see what I mean. They had their own sphere of influence. They couldn't manage the family properties or take part into politics; however I suppose a possible male view could be that they didn't need that, they were too good for that, even though they were not considered up to practical and profound reasoning. They were on a pedestal, respected but kept still.
On the other hand, women joining the fray and taking decisions for themselves were probably less likely to be liked then, and the attitude persists a bit now, I think. A woman gets the good and the bad this way. She shares the rights but also the risks, especially the risk of being treated as badly as men sometimes treat each other. Yet I guess it's worth the effort, though there remains this underlying general "flattening" of courtesy.
As for women trying to balance career and family, I think it's too recent a phenomenon to be able to judge it clearly. Society isn't ready for this yet. As always, I hope for eventual equilibrium between the genders. Many men I know could only benefit from stepping back a little from their career drive and taking more time to themselves, even in the absence of a family, and even more so if they do have one.
I forgot a piece of my reasoning. How about women liking men as a group? In the CW period, it's hard to tell. Average women probably had mixed feelings. They had to depend on men for their safety and well-being, and so there was probably a certain gratitude and admiration. As Rick mentioned, however, much depended on the individual experiences of each woman. It's possible (but I'm going out on a limb) that it was more likely for a woman to be hurt by a man than the opposite, thus diminishing the chances of women liking men in general. However, I also have the elusive feeling that, just like men considered women as frail and beautiful creature to worship and protect but not to rely too much on, it could be that women had a similar attitude in considering men like big babies, well-meaning and useful in various fields but ultimately silly. This maybe could have been the ladies' attitude at seeing them retire in their own parlour to smoke and talk of men things. And of course, men made wars and quarrelled and drank... I don't know why, but I don't get the feeling that women really considered their men as superior; rather as a bit deluded. But as I said, it's only this vague feeling. I really should read more period writings.
How about today? I've noticed that the women I know are more likely to despise men in general. The men are more likely to fear women. At least this is what I've seen in my experience, but bear in mind that I've considered a limited number of individuals and as usual I try to avoid generalizations. Luckily I also know men and women who are perfectly comfortable with each other.
About your writing, I regret to say you are going to have to move your lazy bones (common to writers and poets?)and get serious about it. I do not mean just so that you can get published; but, of course, your chances of being published will only get greater.
I looked around in my geographic area for writing groups, only to discover that all I could find was a journal-writing class, led by a professional who was selling it for $200 for 8 weeks. I really wanted a peer group, even if there were better, and published, poets among us. I could have driven to Berkeley where I could find anything, but there is so much traffic congestion here that my spirit is dampened over the prospect even before I leave the door.
I searched the internet and viewed several sites. Many are not serious: the poetry is Hallmark Card stuff, and the writers of this crap think so well of themselves that there is constant squabbling and hurt feelings because someone dared critique their work. I finally came upon the real site with real poets; and, yes, it is rigorous and if your poetry stinks, they will tell you. They will also work with you to fix it.
That is the important part: to get critique from people who really know the craft. Real poets enjoy looking at other people's writing because, if they can help you out of a problem, they can resolve that same problem for themselves; or they might already have encountered the problem and are giving you the benefit of their own labor.
I think you need to consult other writers of your genre about what they do with the problems you describe in your posts. These are real problems with the craft, actually, and less of a problem for you personally. At least, you should start thinking in this way. How do other romance novelists resolve the problem of distance when creating characters from a completely different era? Maybe they really don't, and here is where the craft takes over and makes you look good. You need to know your craft.
My, I am pedantic today, aren't I?
There are so many fine details to my craft that I must say I feel like I never went to school. Of course, I do not recall ever having a teacher back in school who was an actual novelist or poet. I earnestly encourage you to look around for a writer's group or workshop (long-term). I even have the added benefit, as I mentioned in another post, of being among southern men. In fact, your chances of meeting southern novelists are probably even better. Now wouldn't that be a joy to have a man with whom to seriously share your writing?
I like what you have said above about men and women liking each other, or not, as a group. I have a few comments. I know a few old-fashioned men; and while I feel terribly judged by them at times (I know they cannot figure out why I am not married and think this must indicate a flawed character), I also understand that this kind of man often feels that he cannot redeem himself in any other way but to respect and preserve the purity and gentle and loving nature of women. These men are often a pure type, i.e., engaged in very masculine pursuits that no woman in her right mind would want to be involved in anyway. Their manners, too, are often impeccable. I must say I really like this kind of man. I think there is real beauty in their motivation to want women to be something different from their masculine world.
Redeye, I believe if you can see it and understand it, then it is also worthy of love. Don't despise what you see.
There really are important differences in the way men and women view the world. Men do rely upon women very much in certain things, but we are not relied upon in the way a man would rely upon another man. These thing are passed from father to son; and I have no idea, really, what that is all about, but there is a kind of code of manliness. I watched this between my father and my brother. How did they do this? It was all unspoken. And, by the way, this code persists across all types of men and all socio-economic classes.
On what women think of men, of course, women think of men as babies and silly and a danger to themselves and others. How can we not? We are superior to them; they just do not know it. If they knew, how would that make any difference, anyway? The sexes are not equal, and the balance leans in our direction. This is my opinion, which will not matter one whit to any man, because I am a female (and we all whine - men know this.)
Aren't you utterly amused? I am endlessly amused by men (when I am not crying over one). I adore them. I mean it. I do not need to be understood: I have a dog.
There is a fine English writer, Virginia Wolf, whom you would enjoy if you do not already know her. She writes about this relative position of women in the world, and her prose is quite poetic, the reason I enjoy reading her.
Redeye, you are a pleasure to have as a friend. Maybe you would send me some of your writing?
I popped in to tell you something else. Virginia Wolf was a Victorian. She actually committed suicide, filled her coat pockets with rocks, and walked into the ocean. This is a mystery to me because she was married to a good man who tried very hard to take care of her.
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