The Ladies TeaStop in and grab a quick cup of tea! All sorts of ladies issues are disscussed here. Both Ladies and Gentlemen are welcome to join in the conversations.
I feel like I'm pulling together the two sides of this discussion, trying to make them meet. So:
1) Difficulty of love in modern times, its reasons, and individual reactions to this.
2) Love at the time of the CW; easier, more difficult, just the same or just different? and reasons for the way we perceive or want to perceive it as such, as part of the reactions to 1.
About 1, and LL's brother: unfortunately it's a common attitude, and not only among men. There are women who think the same and are ready to accept that in men, as long as they are kept happy by their current significant ape; they don't really resent being in a subordinate position. It's easy for both parts to keep thinking that way and say "oh, it's just nature". I'm suspicious of convenient explanations. If one gets down to all-encompassing theories, according to Schopenauer I'm the only real person in the universe and you all are a figment of my imagination. It would be most convenient to me. No, I'd rather believe in the diversity of individuals and in people like Neil, who manage to use common sense and also be so incredibly romantic!
Point 2: I think the question now gravitates towards this: given the above-mentioned difficulties, why is there a tendency to idealise sentimentally the past and in particular (for us) the Civil War period? We have talked about why those times could have been better than ours, or not (the letters Zou kindly pointed out hint at a fundamental similarity!); the actual differences and the differences we like to see (superior refinement of Southern men ). Now I have yet another consideration to make. The war situation: I have already said it provides conflict and opportunities for drama and romance, but I think it can be also more directly tied to Point 1. People during wars suffer a lot. Some become worse for that: seeing the bad things men do to each other and the seeming lack of a logic, a sense or a superior will in the destruction, they lose hope in humanity, God and themselves and either succumb to desperation or lose respect for fellow human beings. However, some become more compassionate and more aware of how life is precious. This kind of man - one who has known extreme pain and has learned to value life and respect others, and is able to give comfort and accept it - can be very attractive to women. (One may wonder if it takes a war for people to be more sensitive, but one hopes not.) This is not the only reason I'm attracted to war tales - I'm also interested in the concept of war brotherhood, the reaction of human beings under extreme conditions, the themes of duty and honour and the inner conflicts they may cause, the study of life "back home", the role of women etc. - but certainly it's a factor.
(Shallow warning ahead - Now, one could wonder why exactly the CW and not just any war. I may dreamily mention uniforms, though I have to point out that Napoleonic uniforms were much more tight-fitting... I also personally prefer clean-shaven men like it was more in fashion at the beginning of the century, but I can adjust.)
Alas, LL, none of my would-be lovers ever cared one whit for my writings, so I abandoned very early that motive for writing, and stuck to art and therapy. (I have a nice male friend who expressed interest in reading them, though.) Instead I agree that I would not exactly be disappointed if some of my characters would step out of my pages, like Colonel Chamberlain in "The Purple Rose of Cairo". My current hero is a one-eyed asthmatic Union captain who ten years later is still struggling with what he did in Georgia: let me know if you see one around.
Lately, I am taking inventory of everything I do: If I do not love it, I do not have time for it. The formula is Love out, love in.
But, Zou, love on the frontier? I suspect you sleep with a gun under your pillow; and if the guy cannot keep up with you on that horse, well, I suppose he sleeps somewhere else!
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Dearest Neil,
You are a true Yankee, as true as they come.
OMG, you court your wife, and you write letters! She must be insanely in love with you. My heart started to pound reading about your period courtship.
Would you please describe to us here on the Love Thread the details of "the way I MUST treat her" in accordance with custom of the time, and also how this differs from a man's behavior in the same circumstance today?
And, it is nice to see you in the parlor, not to be bested anywhere or any place by the Southern men.
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Dear, dear Redeye,
I still need to check my brother's philosophy against that of the men here at CWT. Maybe they will lie to us, and we will really never know the truth.
As for my brother, that's his story and he is sticking to it. He says were it not for the civilizing influence of marriage, he would prefer a trailer. He'd have a lot more money in the bank and a cool car. No mowing, no cleaning gutters, no carrying out the trash...
...maybe my brother is spoiled, grew up with too many women...
Oh, well-said, Redeye, "the superior refinement of Southern men." Now, is not that refinement we so enjoy the very thing that is lacking in modern times?
I believe we can draw a clear distinction and say there is a definite lack of courtship in modern culture, and I believe this is what we women miss. Our modern culture appears shallow, crude, disrespecful, and love is just f------. How tiring, how nihilistic. And there is certainly nothing in popular culture to give any indication of the contrary.
As for wars sensitizing people, sadly, I believe that is, in part, why we have them. And why the Civil War? Speaking for myself, is there really anywhere else a collection of more interesting men? (Show me and will go there.) And those men of the South!
As to our relative capacity for unhappiness....It is always somewhat of an exercise in innacuracy to indulge in such generalizations but I will jump right into the deep end here if you will indulge me in a bit of mental rambling.
For the most part I would suspect that men, at least men of my generation, were ingrained with a certain expectation of stoicism in the face of adversity of all types. Whether it is defined as not being in touch with their feelings or simply holding a stiff upper lip, I suspect that there is some truth to the suggestion in a very broad and general way. Men tend to prefer logic to emotion as a motivating factor. Maybe that is because we are better equipped to handle one than the other or maybe it is because we fear the disorder of a world that runs on emotion.
I would suspect that in any kind of periodic evaluation of the direction of our lives men would tend to view their relative happiness in different terms than women. I tend to think the frequency and thoroughness of such self-evaluations varies between the sexes as well. Men tend to admire a certain amount of stubborness or tenacity even in emotional entanglements whereas women more often than not would see the same qualities as foolish and unreasonable and I am sure that can be seen as a tolerance for unhappiness.
As for the theory of the infamous brother-in-law; I am equally sure that it could accurately be applied to a greater percentage of the male population than females. However, to paint all males with such a broad brush misses the mark as well.
On the death of courtship.....I will get back to you later......more reasons to ramble......
Oh yes, LL, refinement! This is one of the things I too consider to be a fundamental difference between our times and the '800s: that back then, good manners were *required*, while today they are incidental and even considered weirdly old-fashioned sometimes. As for the general attitude towards love, too, I agree completely. I'm not a puritan, quite the contrary: sex is a powerful and mysterious and important thing, and I'm offended by the way it is debased and used as a marketing ploy. One of the things I dream about when thinking of the past ages is that walking down a street you wouldn't be bombarded by sexual images out of contest, which can be titillating for a few, but upsetting or sense-numbing for most. Also, people back then would take more care of their language. These may be small things, but taken all together really give to today's life a sense of boredom and banality.
However... once again I'm playing devil's advocate! I'm the ****hest thing possible from a cynic, you may define me a professional dreamer; that's why sometimes I need to root myself in reality. It's part of those interesting conflicts, after all. So I keep thinking that even our beloved Southern men were human beings, and who knows what one could find behind the required façade of good manners? Maybe just another ape. And maybe not, maybe a natural gentleman! I believe the latter to be perfectly possible; only, I don't think it's strictly tied to their living in the '800s. It's the randomness of life and love, which for me is more common than destiny - though I don't rule destiny out either... let's say, some are lucky to have destiny on their side, and some are not. You can't really understand someone until you've known him or her personally for a long time, and even then it's hard; just think of the added difficulties when this someone can't answer your questions, having been dead for more than a century! That's what I'm wary of - that sometimes I think about these men like I know them, and there's the risk of projecting on them my own thoughts and aspirations. And I feel it's not fair to them, it's a matter of respect. Maybe they were the best persons imaginable, but they were not me and would not necessarily have been my friends, and that's why I try to be careful.
What you have written above has so much clarity, and I enjoyed reading it.
I do believe, too, that this "out-of-context" sexuality, combined with a lack of structure in our relationships, is a prescription for disaster. It takes a great deal of personal awareness and determination not to be discouraged by modern trends.
How do we re-introduce structure and standards without also losing our freedom? For example, I would like everyone to get back in the closet with their sexuality. I do not need to know what people do behind closed doors. However, I would not want gay or lesbian people - or anyone, for that matter - to have to hide and be unable to express their preference.
Are we talking, then, about a new civility, applicable to all? Could we, as a society, make a decision that we will not be ****ographic, but somehow allow certain freedoms within the construct?
LongstreetLass, I agree completely, and I had written a whole set of comments which I entirely lost when I accidentally unplugged the computer (hangs ears in shame). Now I've got to work! I'll get back to it later.
LongstreetLass, How to explain an 1860's courtship between a 20th century married couple? You are right, this won't be very easy!
When Sue & I began Civil War reenacting, I was in the infantry and she in the civilian camp and we rarely saw each other during a reenacting weekend event. When we did see one another, I treated her as if she were a new person in my life as she had taken the name of one of her ancestors, Bloomfield, while I simply changed my name to 'Jeremiah T.' Hamilton.
As was the custom of the time, when I met her on the street or on the way to camp, if she did not speak to me, I did not attempt to speak to her or raise my cap to her. To do so would have been VERY inappropriate for the time.
As our persona's became more fully developed, I had been a foreman and part owner of a whiskey distillery in the small town of Lockbourne, Ohio, where we both lived, I as a bachelor and she as a married woman whose husband was a rich and profitable farmer with much land and holdings to his name.
When the war broke out, both I and the husband enlisted, but in separate units, he in a unit that went east to fight with the Army of the Potomac and I in the 76th OVI to fight in the west with Grant. 'He' was killed in the first battle of Bull Run making Sue the 'Widow Bloomfield.' In order for her to make a living and to serve in memory of her late husband, she approached the Gov. of Ohio and received permission to become a contract cook/sutler for a regiment in the Union Army. As she did not want to be reminded of her husband's passing, she opted to go west and was attached to my unit of Ohio Infantry. She provides cooking and other services to the men, such as providing baths (she has a zinc/portable bathtub and bathing tent with her set up) and has a company laundress that has joined up with her to wash clothes for the men.
I have used her services and am quite taken with her and her ability to work hard at her business. It took about six months (about three events in 'real' time) for us to exchange words during the course of her business dealings with the regiment. We have first become friends and then later, a bit more serious when I ask permission to write her when I am away on campaign.
We have since progressed to the point were I have asked her to marry me, once this cruel war is over. I am awaiting her reply, and hope that she will respond in a favorable manner. On a side note, our letters to one another have been very formal and proper, mixed in with a growing fondness for one another. They are a treat to reread when we get home from a reenactment event where we plan the next level of our involvement. It's great fun!
I have had the further pleasure of escorting Sue to many a formal ball and we have both taken lessons in the dance styles of the period. I enjoy having to remember the proper customs of asking a lady for a dance, filling out her dance card, fetching her refreshments and the like. And the dancing! How I love to do a Virginia Reel, a waltz and the ever popular broom dance!
I love the whole period's idea of being polite to woman and acting a gentleman. I think it is so romantic and exciting and has certainly been a thrill for Sue & I.
That's about all I can think of now. Maybe some more will come to me a bit later. Hope you enjoyed the read.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
I am thrilled that you have posted some details of your ongoing romance here!
I am also delighted that you like to dance. I do not imagine that men like to dance, that they only do this for women. I suppose that it is not really customary any more in our modern culture, but perhaps men of that era did enjoy dancing?
Keep joining us in the parlor, dearest Unionblue! I do look forward to your further posting on this love matter of yours.
Lass, from what I gather of the time, if a man or boy did not know how do dance, he was hardly ever going to meet a girl period! It was part of his upbringing to learn to dance as this was one of the few socially acceptable ways a boy/single man could get 'close' to a woman. So I would say yes to the fact that the men truly enjoyed dancing during that time as they got to be close to the 'fair sex'. Waltz anyone?
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
Why is our "Love Thread" stuck in the Poke Sack? I do not even know what a poke sack is, but I am sure that "love" does not belong in it. Sounds nasty.
If unionblue and blackirish can spend just about as much time here in the parlor with us ladies as they spend up there at Civil War History, then we ought to get this thread legitimized; and Redeye, I like the name you have given the thread,"Love in the Time of the Civil War."
Unionblue, you are becoming a heart throb! I love to dance and have wanted to take tango, two-step, and swing lessons, but I will have to go it alone! I am fascinated that you can get lesson in period dance. I will see what is offered in my area because I am sure no woman of the period would be stepping on her partner's toes (as I would).
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A free and friendly Civil War community. 
My current hero is a one-eyed asthmatic Union captain who ten years later is still struggling with what he did in Georgia: let me know if you see one around. 
LongstreetLass 
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