The Ladies TeaStop in and grab a quick cup of tea! All sorts of ladies issues are disscussed here. Both Ladies and Gentlemen are welcome to join in the conversations.
I have noticed that the ladies board here has been a little on the lack luster side, so I thought I would try to bring a little conversation piece here and maybe get the ladies involved once again in things other then "this talk of war. It's spoiling the talk at all the bar b ques. Besides, there's not going to be any war..." ( good old Scarlett was maybe onto something there.)
I have been asked at allot, and I do mean allot, of events if women wore the colors we do and the prints. And thankfully I can document just about every dress I have with cdv's and Godey's. The answer I give is:
Aniline Dyes were finally feasible thanks to W. H. Parks. First was Mauve in 1856 followed in 1858 by magentas, fuchsia, purple blues and green. Then followed Coral, Electric Blue, violets, bright pink, 'glaring' greens, bright yellow and every kind of red as well as dirty grays and browns. Traditionalists were furious and the colors became high fashion. An aniline black that was especially suited to cotton was used in the manufacture of calico 1860-1863.
I see so many woman out at events that wear the typical every day prints, and that is fine. But they argue with me about my "high society" dress. I have dresses of all kinds of colors and designs and can document just about every one ( and the ones I can't, I am working on. I just found a cdv that I can't wait to get my hands on of a woman in a split panel skirt.)
It has also been argued that for example, they did not panel their skirts. Horse hockey. The picture I have found shows it very clearly.
Woman of all social classes wanted to be pretty. It was not just the high society that had it, mind you they were decked to the nines in comparison, but even your woman on the farm had one dress that was for Sunday's and it was her best dress.
I have loved reading Connie's old posts, and God rest her, I wish she were still around to have a conversation with, since she had so much knowledge, but seemed to be the type of woman that was open to new information and was willing to listen. Anyone else out there who is willing to have such conversations? I would love to listen and learn but also share what I know.
Hope to hear from you ladies soon (and gentlemen too if you would like to talk about frilly things)
Since I know nothing about women's clothing during the Civil War, I would love you to share your knowledge and I'm most interested (and envious!) in what you where to your events. I would love to spend a day in a period dress and bonnet, rather than jeans and boots that are frequently sucked off my feet when fetching horses from muddy paddocks. To quote you Jenna...horse hockey!
Please share your experience and wisdom...I would be most appreciative.
Jenna,
I believe it was William Perkin who created Aniline Mauve(which is not pronounced the way most Americans pronounce it, which drives me nuts BTW. Pronounced MOVE with a strong O) He discovered it entirely by accident. Although another had discovered it before, it had never been applied practically.
Other colors derived from the Mauve quickly followed as you noted. I believe there is a book about him and the color. Mauve, the color that changed the world.
It is interesting in another way. The South was importing more dyed wool from England. Wool that was affected greatly by tariffs. Hmmmmm
Incidentally, Mauve was not the pale purple, nearly pink we know today. But a rich, deep luxurious purple. Anyway, cool stuff. Thanks
YMOS
tommy
(Message edited by aphillbilly on September 18, 2004)
Sir William Henry Perkins (sorry, the Parks listed above was a misprint on my part. Was thinking in two different directions) was an English chemist who at the age of 18 accidentally discovered the synthetic aniline dye known as mauveine ( he was actually trying to find an anti-malari drug, thank goodness for us that he discovered purple instead). Shown as a deep purlple instead of what we know it as today as a soft washed out pink. He left school, much to the horror of his instructor, and opened a dye works factory. The factory was set up in western London and was hugely successfull. Over the course of time he also came up with BritanniaViolet and Perkin Green.
Aniline spawned an entire new angle of research: triphenylmethane dyes. In 1856, Natanson created magenta. Verguin managed to produce the magenta by oxidizing crude aniline with stannic chloride, a tanning solution, in 1859. At the same time, Hofmann determined that the principal components of magenta were homorosaniline, rosaniline, and toluidine. Magenta quickly became more popular than Aniline Purple and was manufactured all over Britain. Hofmann later developed a violet in 1853, which was followed by Girard Violet Imperial in 1860. The next milestone in dye research was attained by Nicholson and Gilbee in 1862, when they sulfonated N-phenyl derivatives of Magenta to produce dyes with better solubility.
Now what really throws a kink in everything I have researched, everything that thousands of people have researched is this: An 1815 dress, located on the Vitorian and Albert Museum web site has a bright red Regency dress with this description:By the period 1805-1810, brighter colours were becoming popular in women’s fashion. This gown is shown over a reproduction red petticoat, but it could also have been worn over a white under-dress to show off the texture of the fabric. Machine-made net, which had been developed and improved during the later 18th century, was a popular ground for embroidery and machine-made laces. Its light weight and airy texture suited the simple style of Neo-classical dresses.
I have the picture of the dress saved on my computer, and I guess if anyone is interested email me and I can send the pic (unless Mike or Ami would make an exception, and then I would post it here.) But it is a bright and I mean bright red. So, where does that leave us on color then? If in 1805 brighter colors were being invented and everything writen says that color of the bright tones were not around till the 1860's, how then does this one dress at the V&A Museum exist and in the bright color tones that it does? Could it be that the reason we think color did not exist is because the vegitable dyes of the periods prior to the CW have mulled or faded, or decomposed?
Dawna- trust me, wearing a period dress is not entirely what it's cracked up to be. But I do love to do it. I wear a period corset and the hoops. I must admitt, for safety I do leave off the petti-coat layer, since that is the long slip under the hoops but over the pantalets, and can get caught around your knees and in camp, not the best thing to have happend with fires around. If you would like to check out my groups web site, feel free. We have loads of pictures on it with information. www.geocities.com/tmekepr/index.html. I'm one of the first pics listed on the "gowns" section.
I will also be the first person to tell you that I am not an expert. I have learned that the more I learn the less I know. The red 1815 dress is a perfect example. It has stummped even a gentleman that working in the historical textile and clothing dept. at the Smithsonian.
Jenna,
It is my understanding that there were indeed bright colors from organic dyes. The problem arises upon the first washing. They run. With the discovery than perkin made, the dyes became stayfast. First in wool but calico and even silk(using the tannin solution IIRC) came fairly quickly on it's heels. Although as we know silk is still a pretty iffy dye holder.
So they did indeed have Very bright colors back then. But only practical if you were the people rich enough to be a 'wear a dress once kinda gal. Or the 'wear it unwashed kind.' But since the most notable dresses, i.e. copied, were from France, no worries. They had perfume for a reason after all.
YMOS
tommy
What a great site BTW. I hope everyone checks it out. Highly recommended.
I do have a question though, please do not think me sexist but was it a guy though of the duct tape corset?
(Message edited by aphillbilly on September 18, 2004)
I checked out your website too and the dresses are simply beautiful...you do them proud! It must be a pleasure to reenact with your family...
I would love to see the dress from 1810 so if it can't be posted on this site, please feel free to email me privately.
I too have always wondered about the corsets and who had the original idea, and without sounding sexist myself, I wouldn't be surprised learn that this was a male invention. Much like the Japanese women binding their feet, I've always believed that with Victorian era women, the tinier the waste, the more desirable the woman?
How long do you wear your corset at events...I would imagine that they are very uncomfortable? How do you manage in the humidity? It was a real learning experience to discover that fans had a language of their own.
It's not so much that the colors ran after the first washing, but that the colors started to mull or mold and deteriorate due to them being organic. Yes you could get bold colors, as our Reniassance friends have shown us, but the colors that are often seen for pre-Civil War are always muted. Now, that could be that the colors we see in museums and in pictures have faded or mulled in such a way that their true coloring is no longer disernable. But there are also plenty that have survived. Take for instance red wine, popular as a dye, but when left out in the sun, it was bleached to almost silver. Turkey blood, another popular way of getting red, would eventually deteriorate into brown, as most blood stains do. Indigo was extremely popular, as it could be used to create so many different shades and designs, and blended with the right colors could create some spectacular colors on silk or wool. But to hold the colors you needed a holding agent, and at that time you were talking about animal urine. Not to pleasant, but it did the job for a while. But that to would deteriorate and cause shading in clothing. Thank goodness our anti-malaria drug did not happen! Where would we be now? Oh and actually, silk is a pretty good holder of dye. Look at the ancient silk tapestries from China. Those have lasted thousands of years. And the majority of Queen Victoria's and Empress Eugania's were silk as well. And they were spectacular in color.
Dawna- You never appreciate bad posture and saggy b**bs more then when you take off a corset!! Really though, you get a proper fitting one, and not no modern day thing either, and they're not to bad. Our events usually start at 9:00 or 10:00 and run till 4-5:00. If it a Saturday, sometimes there is a formal ball, so then your in it till your done dancing! Plus, if you do your ball gown bodice right, you have boning in that, and your day bodice has it, so your upright for 90% of the day. And let me tell you, tear down time includes corset removal!
My corset is period correct with the steal and the laces, with one exception. I have no front busk. ( the metal piece that goes up the front of most and it the hook and eye so-to-speak for the corset). I found that the busk didn't work with, well, my well endowed nature. It caused way to much strain on my lower back and kidneys. Terri, my best friend, made the one I have and we now fondly call it the sausage casing. But I will swear up and down by this thing. It is great!
The idea of tight lacing was primarily a Eruopean fashion, more French then anything. Sarah Hale, the first female editor of a major pulbication and a pioneer of her time, was the editor of Godey's Ladies Book. She said that the only thing tight lacing was good for was for lining the pockets of doctors and undertakers with the money of girls that laced to tight and caused death to themselves. She advocated daily excersise and told women to get out and breath deep of the clean air. To fill your lungs to their fullest. Most of the models in Godey's were never as small waisted as their French counterparts because of Mrs. Hale. ( great web site for more info on Sarah Hale and Godey's: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/godey/glbpub.html)
Actually the sexiest part of a woman's body at that time was not so much her waist, that was actually just a fashion trend, but her exposed and naked ankle. Really quite absurd, since whenever a lady went out in public she never left the house without her shoes and stockings, so the ankle was never exposed. But it is said that if a single man saw a single woman's exposed ankle, he was to being a courtship and marry here post haste!!
You think the fans having their own language is a hoot, you should see what they have for parasoles! Thats funny too. If I can find it in my files, I shall pass it along.
I'll tell you though Dawna, if you're ever in Wisconsin during the summer, look me up. We would take you and put you in a dress for the day. We do in all the time. Don't know if you're going to like it unless you try it. I have a fellow re-enactor who is a huge horse woman. She's worn nothing but raggy things for a long time. Anyways she got to talking with Terri one day and commissioned a riding habit, and boy does she look like the belle of the ball. Mind you, it's not the outfit that she would wear to muck the stalls, but you can still go out and ride and still look like Queen Victoria's lady in waiting.
Tommy- I almost forgot about your "duct tape corset" question. No that is no guy. That is my friend Terri's oldest daughter Rhea. She had short hair in that pic, and well, she wants to be period correct, and even though she has absolutely no chest, wanted a corset. The best way to get a pattern in to duct tape it around your body tight, and make your pattern from there. Hence the "duct tape corset".
Jenna,
I made a typo. I meant was it a guy who thought of it. Typos are a way of life for me. Correct spelling and grammar are things that happen to other people I'm afraid. If it happens to me, it is obvious it is an accident or I had help.
YMOS
tommy
One of the most beautiful sights I have ever witnessed was a woman dressed in a black, Victorian riding habit, riding side saddle at a local fall fair. This lady had entered all of the hunter classes, including equitation over fences, and she was absolutely brilliant. Occasionally I still see side saddles for sale, but not in good enough condition to warrant my interest. Does your friend ride side saddle at your events?
Well Jenna, I'll look forward to being hosed down and dressed up should I ever make it to your neck of the woods! It would be such a treat to experience what has always been a fantasy of mine...to walk in the shoes of a Northern or Southern belle for a day or two. It's such a dichotomy from our ever present world of corsets over t-shirts, thongs, and jeans below the navel.
Thanks for all the great information this weekend.
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