Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
During the siege of Chattanooga, Longstreet sends a dire request to have Lee sent west and take command of the siege at Chattanooga. He states "I am convinced that nothing but the hand of God can save us or help as long as we have our present commander...Can't you not send Lee? The army in Virginia can operate defensively, while our operations here should be offensive--until we recover Tennessee at all events. We need some great mind as General Lee's(nothing more) to accomplish this"
I do not know when Longstreet sent his request in requesting to send Lee west but siege did not begin until Sept 21st when Lookout Mountain fell to Bragg.
Grant does not arrive until Oct 23rd...
What If Pres. Davis had heeded to Longstreet request and sent Lee west and he arrives Oct 1st?
Could Lee have taken Chattanooga and destroyed the Army of the Cumberland before Grant could arrives?
Or Let's say both Lee and Grant arrive in the same week in Oct. The two greatest military minds meet at Chattanooga instead of seven months later as they did in history.
These two great generals meet and engage at Chattanooga each would have had similar size forces and the advantages would have been almost even. Who would have won the first engagement between these two great Generals?
Think! At Chattanooga Lee would have had Longstreet, Cleburne, Forrest, Polk, and Hardee under his command and Grant would have Sherman. Chattanooga would have been a good test to for answering the question: Who was the better general Grant or Lee?
If Lee had gone west to Chattanooga, it would have become one of those historical battles like Waterloo or Zama were the titans of their day meet in battle.
What if Lee and Grant had met at place called Chattanooga??????????
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
Judging by Lee at Chattanooga (where Lee has more "I think you should go there and advise Bragg" then "take over from him"), Lee might have been able to pull off something. But...it's not a given. We are still speaking of the Army of Tennessee and it never ran smoothly.
I would put money on Cleburne or Longstreet in less time than it takes to type this, were I a gambling man.
Polk or Sherman? Giggle. Snort. Mock. Sherman was a tough and well educated man, but he was not a man who had a gut level knowledge of what to do in a fight. Polk...well...I side wholeheartedly with Bragg here.
Hardee, I don't know if he would have been a boon or bane.
Forrest is only partially relevant in this particular engagement. The terrain doesn't favor cavalry's special abilities, such as they still apply, so I'm not sure what good his presence would be (besides being much better than Wheeler).
But if the goal was to drive Thomas out of Chattanooga, even Lee would have trouble doing so, after Bragg's army is sitting there waiting for them to starve.
Lee at Chickamauga, now, that could be disasterous for the AotC (Army of the Cumberland).
__________________ Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less. - Robert E. Lee
The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just. - Abraham Lincoln
Lee might have been able to pull off something. But...it's not a given. We are still speaking of the Army of Tennessee and it never ran smoothly.
Took the words out of my mouth, Elennsar. Lee ranked Bragg and, with orders from Davis, could have taken over. He at least would have cleaned up the defensive lines atop Missionary Ridge. A lot of what he might have done would depend on when he got on scene.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I don't know.
A part of me says that Lee never did much once outside of Virginia, and that loyalty may proved difficult to overcome.
Ignoring that...
As an engineer, I can't but imagine he'd have made some improvements to Lookout Mountain, and likely Mission Ridge too.
Presumably he'd have fed his troops, which seems to have been at least partially responsible for the retreat from Lookout if nothing else.
The hard part would be seizing initiative with his smaller force while still maintaining something of a siege before the Union forces build up to the point where Grant has some options (such as feint toward Trenton GA with the hope of drawing off part of the siege forces).
The confederate failure to understand war (vs battles & campaigns) seems glaringly evident at Chattanooga. If ever there was a time to use cavalry to hara ss foragers or interdict supplies, this would seem to be it. (my knowledge of what forces were available is limited, however).
[edit] I agree about Thomas.
__________________ One can be a brother only in something. Where there is no tie that binds men, men are not united but merely lined up.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery
As best as I can determine ::holds up Connelly as a reference.::, the Confederates had plenty of horsemen.
Leaders? No. Organization? Well, let me quote Connelly here
"By July of 1863, Wheeler's cavalry had only ,7896 effective cavalry, but the rolls carried 16,000 men."
So, a ratio that bad or worse of "Actually able to do any good" versus "technically available" is probably what Bragg or Lee would be facing.
I don't know the details of the situation in this particular moment so far as the cavalry (or infantry and artillery), but the AoT would need nothing short of an inspired genius to pull a true victory from the situation.
Lee might have been such a man. But he'd be battling with an army with all sorts of unfavorable variables stacked against it, and this ignores any merits of Grant, Sherman, Thomas, or the Army of the Cumberland.
I can see Chattanooga being a victory if Lee could reorganize the lines. I don't see the campaign being "The Army of the Cumberland is forced to surrender" with such a weak tool (the AoT) at Lee's disposal. It was too crippled by internal issues and a bad position.
I don't want to rule out the possibility, I just feel reason to be pessimistic.
__________________ Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less. - Robert E. Lee
The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just. - Abraham Lincoln
If Lee would have been at Chattanooga, he would have cleaned up their lines. Would he have waited for Grant to make a move or would he have taken action first?
I think if he would have seen the union build up. He may have waited for Grant to strike..
I know Grant would not wait for Lee. He would have attacked as history tells us. I think he would have been surprise to find Lee just as tenacious as him. I do not think the confederate lines would have broken with Lee there.
Thoughts....
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
Maybe Lee's greatest challenge would not have been Grant but turning an army(AoT) with a dubious record failures into an army that wins battles. I wonder which officers he would have ushered out to Texas...He may not have had the time to reorganized the AoT until after the issue of Chattanooga was resolved....
Lee's true challenge remaking of the AoT....
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
There is a fictional novel by the same title as this post. In it the author had Lee going to Chattanooga and organizing a grand assault, one that called for the coordination of a Chancellorsville. It's been awhile since I read the piece but I think Longstreet and Cleburne and when it came time to act Bragg failed and Lee was killed.
Good read and interesting take on what if.
To respond to the post, Lee would have had a tough time with the independent, devisive thinkers in the AoT. Working together is what made the ANV successful and it takes time to develop that chemistry. I don't think the timeline of Chattanooga would have given Lee enough time to coordinate his people. It would be like the Penninsula except not against McLellen, no Jackson and a Bragg and staff well versed in defeat. Yikes.
There is a fictional novel by the same title as this post. In it the author had Lee going to Chattanooga and organizing a grand assault, one that called for the coordination of a Chancellorsville. It's been awhile since I read the piece but I think Longstreet and Cleburne and when it came time to act Bragg failed and Lee was killed.
Good read and interesting take on what if.
To respond to the post, Lee would have had a tough time with the independent, devisive thinkers in the AoT. Working together is what made the ANV successful and it takes time to develop that chemistry. I don't think the timeline of Chattanooga would have given Lee enough time to coordinate his people. It would be like the Penninsula except not against McLellen, no Jackson and a Bragg and staff well versed in defeat. Yikes.
Steve Acker
STeve Acker
I was thinking of buying that Lee at Chattanooga book U spoiled it for me. Rats.
To respond to the post, Lee would have had a tough time with the independent, devisive thinkers in the AoT. Working together is what made the ANV successful and it takes time to develop that chemistry. I don't think the timeline of Chattanooga would have given Lee enough time to coordinate his people. It would be like the Penninsula except not against McLellen, no Jackson and a Bragg and staff well versed in defeat. Yikes.
From the book or not, Steve, a succinct analysis ruining the speculative nature of the thread. I mean, who can top that? (;-)
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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Lee & Grant meet at Chattanooga---What if- 
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