Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
Here is one of my more probable improbable "What Ifs". As many of us know the key to Pickett's charge was the artillery barrage in the hours leading up to Pickett's men leading the assault against the union line at Cemetery ridge. The artillery barrage did a horrendously poor job of softening up the union position and knocking out the union artillery.
What if the French had developed their "French 75mm/1897" in 1862 and sold them to the Confederacy being available to Lee's Gettysburg campaign. The French 75mm/1897 was a breech loading weapon that fired 24 rounds a minute and the first hydropneumatic artillery weapon. Which means it did not have to be reset after each firing and could sustain fire on target.
This technology came only thirty years after our civil war so it could be reasonable that it could have been developed earlier in time for our little spat between brothers.
What if Lee had these new French 75mm and enough ammunition on the 3rd day at Gettysburg to use in his barrage before the infamous Pickett's charge?
Could the French 75mm make a big enough difference to make Pickett's charge successful?
How many French 75mm would it take 10, 20, or 40 to make Pickett's charge successful?
Would a direct fire Hydropneumatic artillery weapon have made a difference at Gettysburg?
The French 75mm/1897 charged artillery forever could it have given Lee victory at Gettysburg?
One can argue that the only reason Pickett's charge failed was because the artillery was not advanced enough to do the job, Lee required..
Open to ones thoughts....
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
Well, would the 75mm have been able to fire with the level of accuracy on the Union lines with the equipment available (presumably other than the cannon itself, Lee is working with the same stuff as before) necessary to reliably hit the front lines?
If so, I would say I would want at least a battalion (sixteen guns or so). Plus any necessary (no idea on how many, I'm not familar with how effective the 75mm was) to silence the Union artillery, as the guess of a battalion is to do the work of punishing the infantry.
Could it make a difference?
Yes. If the artillery Lee was using had pounded the front lines as hard as it had pounded the rear of those lines, the would be badly shaken up and presumably suffering very serious casualties.
But Meade's reserves going in would probably be able to keep Pickett's Charge from doing a whole lot more than punching through Hancock's lines.
Whether the Confederate troops that were sort of kind of meant as a second wave could have made up for that...I doubt it, but it is possible.
A good what if! Unlikely without time travel to say the least, but well worth thinking about.
__________________ Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less. - Robert E. Lee
The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just. - Abraham Lincoln
Here is one of my more probable improbable "What Ifs". As many of us know the key to Pickett's charge was the artillery barrage in the hours leading up to Pickett's men leading the assault against the union line at Cemetery ridge. The artillery barrage did a horrendously poor job of softening up the union position and knocking out the union artillery.
What if the French had developed their "French 75mm/1897" in 1862 and sold them to the Confederacy being available to Lee's Gettysburg campaign. The French 75mm/1897 was a breech loading weapon that fired 24 rounds a minute and the first hydropneumatic artillery weapon. Which means it did not have to be reset after each firing and could sustain fire on target.
This technology came only thirty years after our civil war so it could be reasonable that it could have been developed earlier in time for our little spat between brothers.
What if Lee had these new French 75mm and enough ammunition on the 3rd day at Gettysburg to use in his barrage before the infamous Pickett's charge?
Could the French 75mm make a big enough difference to make Pickett's charge successful?
How many French 75mm would it take 10, 20, or 40 to make Pickett's charge successful?
Would a direct fire Hydropneumatic artillery weapon have made a difference at Gettysburg?
The French 75mm/1897 charged artillery forever could it have given Lee victory at Gettysburg?
One can argue that the only reason Pickett's charge failed was because the artillery was not advanced enough to do the job, Lee required..
Open to ones thoughts....
I have to admit -- I never thought of that.
However, not that you've kickstarted my mind, I'd have to say the French 75 MM is the wrong gun to look at. The technology for it really doesn't exist yet -- but it is coming close. The perfect example would be the Krupp steel breechloading guns (first sold to Egypt in 1855, the Russians sending a big order in 1863, and the guns in use by the Prussian Army in 1866 and 1870.)
The Prussians didn't do very well with them against the Austrians in 1886 (the Austrians were using guns the equivalent of ACW rifled cannon). But by 1870 more aggressive artillery tactics made the Krupp guns the real technology difference in the war. Still, some 200 Krupp guns failed during the Franco-Prussian War. The technology needed a lot of improvement.
You could easily see the Confederacy laying their hands on these guns: Krupp would sell to anyone (heck, he ticked Bismarck off by trying to sell them to Austria just before the 1866 war started.) Biggest problems would probably be ammo supply and maintenance.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Biggest problem would be getting the French to part with them on credit. Second to that would be getting the French to part with ammunition on credit. (The Confederacy had no facilities to manufacture its own.) Third would be learning to use them. (It's extraordinally difficult to hit anything at a mile, let alone a gun that you can barely see.)
I'm certain that the Confederacy had artillerists of note; there just didn't seem to be any in Gettysburg that day. Of course, having crappy shells didn't help any.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
In this what if old Bobbie Lee has enough ammo and the training what training... Those southern artillery boys just have to tell the which way to shoot...
It was the artillery that failed to do its job in Pickett's charge. Lee's plan was scripted for WWI have an intense artillery barrage followed by an infantry assault. His artillery just was not up the job on the July day in 1864.
If the south had the right artillery to do the job with the tactic of the creeping barrage and Pickett's charge would over run the hill. Note: The union army was not in trenches but behind stone and make shift walls which a creeping barrage would have crushed.
I need to look into that Krupp 200. It was around and Lee could have used it but I do not think it was still up to the job that needed to be done for Pickett's charge to be successful..
creeping off to thoughts......
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
Well as the first French 75's were made up from US 3" Ornance Rifles...
__________________ Few take the trouble to understand or to view the American scene with perspective. And we Americans love to find ourselves guilty of something. However, it is never I who am guilty, but those other Americans, the past or present government or the other political party. Americans almost never find other countries guilty. It is always ourselves or our fancied influence in other countries. Louis L'amour
Besides Artillery barrages the next important thing is speed of the assault on the entrenched position.
What if Lee had sent Stuart and his cavalry out after the artillery barrage as the first assaulting brigades followed by Pickett the the other infantry brigades?
The cavalry could cross that ground extremely fast and punched a hole in the union line and the infantry could have explored it... If the infantry could make it to union line then the cavalry could have broke through causing havoc no cemetery ridge as the infantry mashes into the union line.
Some more wonderng thoughts.....
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
What if Lee had sent Stuart and his cavalry out after the artillery barrage as the first assaulting brigades followed by Pickett the the other infantry brigades?
You're assuming the artillery barrage would have been more successful than it was; i.e., Hunt was killed in it?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
You're assuming the artillery barrage would have been more successful than it was; i.e., Hunt was killed in it?
ole
No,
I was thinking sending all five divisions of Stuarts cavalry across the ground followed by Pickett and company. I was thinking even do under the artillery barrage because the smoke should help conceal the Charge giving the union less time to react. I'm thinking an all or nothing approach to victory..
I'm thinking out of the box....
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
French 75mm with Lee at Gettysburg-- 
Linear Mode
