Pres. Johnson Dies 1866-What if??

[5fish]

Hers is a "What if" about reconstruction which hopefully stirrer some debate..

What if President Andrew Johnson had either die in office or was assassinated in office? Think about how Reconstruction period may have turned out for President Johnson was like the best friend the white southern could have had in office, following the war. He veto numerous laws like the Reconstruction Acts, Civil rights law(became the 14th amendment later), Freedman bureau, and other reconstruction type laws many of his veto's were overturned. As President, he use the powers of his office to forestall the Radicals in Congress and the progessive in the south.

Note: President Andrew Johnson did not have a V.P. while in office. He would have been replaced by Pro Tem of the Senate.

If Pres. Johnson had died in the first two years, he would have been replaced by Latayette Foster?

If Pres. Johnson had died his last two years of office, he would have been replace by Ben Wade( a Radical Republican).

The radicals would have control the House and Senate and if they could have had control of the Presidency, Think of the Possibilities.

The radicals could have truly made left their mark on the Southern States that would have lasted?

Think: Maybe to no Jim crow south, Maybe no segregation, Maybe true Suffrage for Freedmen.

The Radicals would have force equality of the embittered Southern whites.

No pardons for the X- Confederates maybe complete disenfranchise.

Use of the U. S. army to put down the Klan and other like groups.

Maybe the Southern States would have been forced to pay for the civil war.

The radicals could have written a new history of the south. Think what President Grant would have inherited form a Pres. Wade.

A President Wade could have been a dream come true of the Scalawags..

[Baggage Handler #2]

I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that the combination of the march to the sea and Lincoln's death prevented a protracted guerrilla war. (the unspoken understanding that such an action would result in Sherman marching all over... and over ... and over...)

What you've proposed, I think, would have undone all that. Unless you're willing to plant a large military force and keep it there - think Poland 1948 - you're going to have all kinds of trouble - think Prague 1968.

My, what a mess that would have been. It's bad enough what happened 1861-1865, but to lose another generation that way ... awful.

[5fish]

AWFUL--I dare say not!!

You should read about Johnson and his accretion the Democratic party is the "White man's party".

Look, what came out the the south for the next 90 or so years. The Freedmen ended up becoming second class citizens through laws that would later be called "Jim Crow" and segregation. Where's the equality!!

If Ben Wade and the other radicals would have forestall that form happening. I admit instead of 90 years for America to get it right it would have been 10 or 20 hard years but justice would have prevailed..

You say AWFUL-Baggage Handler. I say justice now..why wait 90 years for right...Ben Wade could have given justice now..

[OpnDownfall]

Wade and the Radical's would have had no problem with planting a permanent army of occupation in the south. They expected southern resistence to emancipation would require it.
If one believes Reconstruction ended 50 or 60 years too soon (at least), as I do, it would have required a Ben Wade and a Radical hegemony in Congress.

[Baggage Handler #2]

Originally Posted by 5fish

AWFUL--I dare say not!!

You should read about Johnson and his accretion the Democratic party is the "White man's party".

Look, what came out the the south for the next 90 or so years. The Freedmen ended up becoming second class citizens through laws that would later be called "Jim Crow" and segregation. Where's the equality!!

If Ben Wade and the other radicals would have forestall that form happening. I admit instead of 90 years for America to get it right it would have been 10 or 20 hard years but justice would have prevailed..

You say AWFUL-Baggage Handler. I say justice now..why wait 90 years for right...Ben Wade could have given justice now..

That's not exactly what I meant. I completely share your sense of misplaced hope regarding many of the things that didn't happen.

But some other things didn't happen either.
Specifically, I was thinking that if the terms were very harsh - even if just - the guerilla war that was feared may have been realized. The treaty of Versailles endin WW1 is often blamed for bringing about German nationalism to a level not before seen. Could something similar have happenned in the south? Wouldn't bet either way on that one.

What seems to have been woefully lacking were schools for the emancipated, and that seems like a huge oversight, in, er, hindsight.

[Baggage Handler #2]

Originally Posted by OpnDownfall

Wade and the Radical's would have had no problem with planting a permanent army of occupation in the south. They expected southern resistence to emancipation would require it.
If one believes Reconstruction ended 50 or 60 years too soon (at least), as I do, it would have required a Ben Wade and a Radical hegemony in Congress.

Obviously, I'll have to rethink things. Thanks!

[5fish]

Here's a thought one newspaper side-- Pres. Johnson is in innocent because Senator Wade --would be president- I paraphrase it but you get the thought. There were moderate Republican Senators who worried if the Radicals of their party got control of the White House. The Senators who voted against impeachment were from the far western states and the border states during the war. Their Party and public opinion wanted Johnson out but they(Moderate Republicans) did not want Wade and the radicals in.

I believe Wade would have planted the U.S. Army in the middle of the Southern states until their vision was fulfilled for the south.

If Thaddeus Stevens could have had his way the south would have been remade anew. He and others radicals wanted the south to pay in more ways then one for sending our nation into civil war...

Ben Wade would have had only two years but what kind of legacy could he and the radicals have left on the south.

[5fish]

Here's the price of voting for wrong guy?

Those seven Senators that voted against impeachment of President Johnson. None of them won reelection back to the senate once their term was up. Some didn't even try to run for office because they knew they would not win reelection.

It is as close to a just reward for voting against what was right for our nation. I shed no tears for those guys...

[ole]

We know from about 150 years of maturation, that a police-state invariably engenders strong resistance, if not rebellion. The rebels of 1770 didn't have much of a following until George turned the garrisons into policemen.

Doing much the same following the Civil War would have had even more dramatic results, with the additional complication of policing a populace with a very large portion of resentful, fighting men.

While Reconstruction could certainly have been handled with more skill and less rancor, I figure the result was pretty much what it would have been however it was handled.

ole

[5fish]

While Reconstruction could certainly have been handled with more skill and less rancor, I figure the result was pretty much what it would have been however it was handled.

ole

[/quote]

Your opinion in the paragraph seems to be the indicative opinion of most people about the Reconstruction period.

So in the end the Freedmen would end up out of slavery but still under thumb of the southern white man.