Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
Step #1. Admit it happend but blame the South for worse autorcities.
Step #2. If you can't refute the message, attack the messenger.
Standard policy in neo-abolitionist blue-age revisionist historical chat policy.
I haven't seen anyone making such claims. I have seen people point out that there were attrocities on both sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue.Raider88
We're talking about the evils of the federal government here ole. You don't have to defend 'em. They can afford the best advocates money can buy and they've had 150 years to purge the Offical Record of any references otherwise.
No, the Official Records were published while many Civil War veterans still lived and have been in print since well before the First World War. Time is actually the enemy of most coverups by government organizations: something always slips through, someone always talks.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Step #1. Admit it happend but blame the South for worse autorcities.
Step #2. If you can't refute the message, attack the messenger.
Standard policy in neo-abolitionist blue-age revisionist historical chat policy.
We're talking about the evils of the federal government here ole. You don't have to defend 'em. They can afford the best advocates money can buy and they've had 150 years to purge the Offical Record of any references otherwise.
I'd glady suffer one thousand wild-eyed Southern Boys rather than endure one Butcher of Kentucky. The federal government hadn't ought to have that much power and authority. No Way! No How!
Pot..kettle...black
Refute what message? First you say that this is merely a what-if and therefore you do not have to support your basic premise. Then you say that those who have challenged you "can't refute the message." And you, therefore, attack the messengers.
NO ONE has claimed that there were not attrocities. NO ONE has excused Federal attrocities by claiming Southern attrocities were worse.
YOU started this thread with the premise that the South should have committed attrocities - the murder of surrendered prisoners - and claimed that would be a good thing. YOU have basically claimed that every Provost Marshall in Kentucky should have been killed. YOU have therefore advocated war crimes and wonder why people might take a hostile view to your position.
"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." Matt 7:3-5
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
And so's you all don't think I'm going off half cocked, I'm going to point you to a list of Confederate soldiers buried in Cave Hill Cemetery in Louisville, Kentucky. These young men were Prisoners of War. Now I know it was difficult to be a prisoner of war during the civil war. I ain't saying all these young men were put in the ground by evil Provost Marshals, but .........
Yet again shying away from the established, historical fact that such actions can be traced to both sides and refusing to admit such did happen on both sides.
And so's you all don't think I'm going off half cocked,
Too late, Bule.Raider88, you can't help yourself but go off half-cocked, as your previous posts have indicated. You are fighting a war already decided and now are trying to, once again, make a modern tie-in with today's government (lying, government historians, etc.). We've been down this road before and now we are going down it again, because YOU choose to and because you cannot be impartial in any way, shape or form.
You claim to only be pointing to a "what if" scenario, but constantly claim historical evils and events concerning Union Provost Marshals and then get upset when called on it, to provide proof that such events took place. That's the main problem when you want a playing field all to yourself and then invite others in to play. Sometimes they are apt to question the rules by which you want them to play by.
I'm going to point you to a list of Confederate soldiers buried in Cave Hill Cemetery in Louisville, Kentucky. These young men were Prisoners of War. Now I know it was difficult to be a prisoner of war during the civil war. I ain't saying all these young men were put in the ground by evil Provost Marshals, but .........
So now we are to assume, not know or prove, but we must just assume that these men died in a more horrible manner, perhaps at the hands of "evil" Union Provost Marshals, as you suggest in your quote above or just as a general result of "evil" Union mistreatment?
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Mathew 10:34
I have to admit, I love the Bible when people hunt and pick a quote out of the entire book to justify their own viewpoint.
That's what's incredible about the Book, as it were. You can twist it, bend it, chop it up into little pieces, and come up with any justification in the world to say the silliest things or commit the worst atrocities in the history of the world.
When people do such they negate the entire purpose of it, especailly when all they are looking for is an excuse to promote themselves and not God.
IMO.
Unionblue
__________________ "The American people and the Government at Washington may refuse to recognize it for a time but the inexorable logic of events will force it upon them in the end; that the war now being waged in this land is a war for and against slavery." Frederick Douglass
"Loyalty to our ancestors does not include loyalty to their mistakes." George Santayana
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I have to admit, I love the Bible when people hunt and pick a quote out of the entire book to justify their own viewpoint.
Sir, I don't quote the Bible often. The only reason I did this time, was because our friend from North Texas felt it necessary to do so earlier in the thread. I find it interesting how you choose to criticize me for doing so though, yet apparently, did not even notice that fact. Is it becuase of some deep seated aversion to seeing things through a Southern set of lenses?
Really Unionblue! I invite you to take a ride on the wild side. Throw Conventional Wisdom away and ride with John Hunt Morgan and Joseph Orville Shelby. If only for a day or two. It'll change your perspective on things.
We can't help to be Union advocates Unionblue. It's in our genes. Our fathers and our grandfathers were FED on it. You won't get lost to the darkside sir. But you might see the light.
So now we are to assume, not know or prove, but we must just assume that these men died in a more horrible manner, perhaps at the hands of "evil" Union Provost Marshals, as you suggest in your quote above or just as a general result of "evil" Union mistreatment?
What else should we assume unionblue? Do you intend to suggest that all of these men and women, soldiers and civilians alike, died of wounds they received in combat? Are we to assume that they died trying to escape? Perhaps you'd have us believe that all of these brave souls, Americans all, died due to some crime committed on them by their fellow inmates?
I say to you, NO sir. They died at the hands of the tyrant. They died as a result of cruel mistreatment by evil federal authorities.
And don't even try to compare this horrible autrocity to what happened in Georgia, sir. There is NO comparisson. This prison camp was on the banks of the mighty Ohio river with easy access to food and medical services NOT out in the middle of nowhere in some back country farm.
Admit it! The US Provost Marshalls in Kentucky were cruel and ruthless oppressors of anyone and anything Southern. They didn't hesitate to kill for their tyrant Lincoln.
Gen. Morgan ought to have strung them up in a tree every chance he got.
Blue Raider, do you know how many men from Kentucky served the US during the war vs the number of CS soldiers from Kentucky? Kentucky was overwhelmingly US in sentiment hence when Bragg invaded he found few volunteers.
US sympathy was extinguished brutally by the CS throughout from West Texas to Virginia. If you were proud to be a US citizen you took your life in your hands by speaking up.
If Morgan should have strung up every Provost Marshall in Kentucky then every treasonous politician in the CS should have been strung up for starting the mess in the first place.
As to POW camps... neither side has anything to be proud of. Then again the US has one thing going for it that the CS doesn't in regards to POW's. The US made a real effort, though unsuccesful, of freeing the men at Andersonville. The CS didn't and I can think of no other nation from 1750 to the modern era who has staged serious operations w/ the intent of freeing POW's.
__________________
Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
Blue Raider, do you know how many men from Kentucky served the US during the war vs the number of CS soldiers from Kentucky? Kentucky was overwhelmingly US in sentiment hence when Bragg invaded he found few volunteers.
Did you look at that list? That's a huge list sir. A huge list. In downtown Louisville, Kentucky. Not out in the middle of nowhere sir.
I know being a POW was tough. I ain't suggestion it weren't. But come on! I'm not talking about them that was marched out into the street and paroled with lead. I'm talking about prisoners who died behind bars. Locked in thier cell without food nor water. Beat to death by brutal jailers. Tortured and tormented for no other reason than the way the slur their are's.
Why cain't you all admit it?
You do youselves a disservice as well as them that you're trying to protect.
If you look through blue tinted lenses, you will never see the truth and it will never set you free!
I'm talking about prisoners who died behind bars. Locked in thier cell without food nor water. Beat to death by brutal jailers. Tortured and tormented for no other reason than the way the slur their are's.
Sources required.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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