Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
There still was a window between 1861 to 1862 when then President Juarez could have joined up with the Confederacy...
It was in March of 1861 that President Davis refused to even discuss diplomatic relations with the Mexicans because he felt he might be invading them within a year or two. The Confederacy itself slammed the window shut very early on.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
It was in March of 1861 that President Davis refused to even discuss diplomatic relations with the Mexicans because he felt he might be invading them within a year or two. The Confederacy itself slammed the window shut very early on.
Tim
I trying to make the " what if " question work.....
I know I am fighting against history.....
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
I trying to make the " what if " question work.....
I know I am fighting against history.....
The problem is that a "what-if" must match up with the existing facts. Davis and many other high-ranking Southerners were strongly committed to the "manifest Destiny concept of the 1840s -- which essentially was that the US was ordained by God to fill the continent from sea to shining sea. Davis was a strong advocate of US annexation of Cuba in the 1950s, for example (by whatever method would work). He saw nothing wrong with "filibustering expeditions" into other countries in the 1850s (he was approached to command one, declined, but recommended Robert E. Lee as a replacement; Lee also refused).
No one can realistically think that Davis would have suddenly reversed himself and made a pact with Mexico in 1861. Mexico itself was way too weak and divided to have done anything on their own. They had just finished their own civil war (1858-1861). Juarez was just coming into power (the victorious liberals entered Mexico City January 1; Juarez was elected in March). The British, French and Spanish decided to use force to collect their debts in October and troops from the three nations landed in December.
There just isn't much chance of this "what-if" working out. Mexico lacked the ability to do much of anything; they were in disarray, broke, and were invaded by foreigners within a few months. Confederate attitudes tended towards a belief Mexico was their natural target. Hard to see a way forward on this.
Tim
__________________ "Let us, then, consider all attempts to weaken this Union, by maintaining that each state is separately and individually independent, as a species of political heresy, which can never benefit us, but may bring on us the most serious distresses."
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina, 1740-1824, Revolutionary War soldier, one of the authors of the US Constitution in 1787, speaking at the South Carolina Ratifying Convention in 1788.
Instead of crying in your beer, 5fish, wouldn't it be more fun to cry in your mint margeuritas?
I go along with Trice. The Mexicans were in no position to aid the Confederacy, let alone send troops. Even if they had trained troops with modern arms, there's a lot of rather hostile territory to cross before getting at any Federal opposition.
As Trice pointed out, they had just been through a rather vicious civil war of their own. They owed a lot of money to France and England -- so much so that troops were sent to ensure its collection.
They were more likely to have been hoping that both the Federals and Confederates would destroy each other so they'd have a better chance to take back what they had lost to both.
It might be inferred that the Juaristas' sentiments tilted more closely to the South -- given that they wanted to send envoys to meet with Davis while the same offer was not made to Lincoln.
But it remains that they had no reason to love either side, except maybe to gain favor with what might become their closer neighbor; and that their resources were limited.
To make a perfectly good "what if" work, there ought to be an element of possibility. I say "perfectly good" because it has accomplished what all "what ifs" are intended to accomplish: explore a subject in more depth.
Let's say Davis accepted an alliance of sorts, what could Mexico do? Liked your idea of more ports for the blockade to cover. I suppose it's possible for smugglers to get items of military desirability into them for transshipment to Texas. Will that supposition help?
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Let's say Davis accepted an alliance of sorts, what could Mexico do? Liked your idea of more ports for the blockade to cover. I suppose it's possible for smugglers to get items of military desirability into them for transshipment to Texas. Will that supposition help?
ole
Yet were not supplied already coming through Mexico and into Texas? I thought I had read that was a major smuggling route. A formal alliance would simply give the North the excuse to shut down shipments into the Mexican ports.
Further, the transportion links between Texas and Mexico and between Texas and the rest of the Confederacy were poor enough, I believe, that this was never going to be a major supply route. Someone correct me if I am wrong there.
In the "what if" community there is an oft-cited concept called "alien space bats" ("ASB's") When a "what-if" is so implausible that it could not reasonably come to pass (say, the Confederacy mass-producing machine guns), we say that it is clear that the timelines was messed with by alien space bats.
I think, for the reasons stated herein by ole in the above post - building on the arguments made by others, that we are definitely in alien space bat territory.
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
of the U.S. compared to the non-existent one of the Confederacy. It was U.S. naval ships visiting Mexican ports. It was U.S. ships unloading supplies in western Mexico at the port of Guaymas, which eventually resupplied the U.S. forces in Arizona and New Mexico.
The Mexican government officials would have had to drink too many margaritas to not notice.
Adding to the problem neo-confederate history doesn't carry the importance of Guaymas, let alone, where it was.
There was a thriving trade between Matamoros in Mexico and Brownsville in Texas during the Civil War. Cotton was the major export while armaments and other necessary supplies were the major imports. (The King and Kenedy fortunes were created from this activity.) I am not sure how Mexico would have been able to supply much more aid to the Confederacy than this trade.
There is an excellent book on this subject entitled "Civil War and Revolution on the Rio Grande Frontier" by Jerry Thompson and Lawrence Jones. Good narrative and superb original pictures of the area during the War.
A most excellent observation, Ashbel. How much more could be done than what was being done? Would opening up more Mexican ports have improved the situation? There would nave been no specific improvement in getting whatever into the hands of the Confederacy -- it still had to move through Texas to where?
A great big welcome to ashbel -- a serious student of the Civil War.
There is a forum on the board that invites you to introduce yourself to the rest of the membership .... just to say hey.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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