Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
Not much going on in the old what-if thread, so let me throw out another one.
Let us say that McClellan get a transfusion from Grant about the time he lands on the Peninsula. Instead of caution, the moves with alacrity and old Joe Johnson retreats, retreat, retreats and Richmond falls. This is a huge blow to the South both industrially and politically. No Tredegar Iron Works, no chance of European recognition because they do not want to support an obviously doomed cause, etc.
Morale plummets in the South, no one wants to join the cause, and Union troops begin a march toward South Carolina.
What would the consequences of a great commander on the Union side from the beginning of the war have been. Could the war have ended in late 1862? If this happened, what would be the implications? Would slavery still have been destroyed? What would reconstruction have looked like?
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
A disaster of the First Magnitude, for the Confederacy, no doubt, but ending the war early.....???? Depends on what you define as early. I can see the war ending earlier, but how much earlier, has too many variable.
Like the 'What If .... Lee captured Washington? IMO a lot would depend more upon capturing the President and a good part of Congress, which would paralyze (temporarily, at least) the war making abilities of either section.
Like Lincoln, Davis was a hard man to convince, once he made up his mind about anything. If Davis and good part of the CSA Gov't escaped, the war would continue. War fever, was still high in the governing class of the states and the Armies. .
Depending on how much of Johnstons army survives and where Davis retreats, would IMO be decisive. If he moves deep into the South say, Savannah, Agusta or Atlanta the NC will probably fold and SC will be in danger of being surrounded. The war in the East is effectively, gven up and the War will rest on the Materiale' deficient West. I think the war would end in Late 1863 or fearly or middle of 1864.
Ps. I do not think Lee would be very effective out of his beloved Va.
Well, OK. The Union Army still is not very strong at this point, so I'll guess the Confederate govt. relocates to Atlanta. Then a push south toward that new capitol starts, but even fighting blood can not make short work of this.
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"It was a very peculiar time." - Franklin D. Cossitt
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The capture of Richmond in 62 would not have signified an immediate end to the war, but it would have significantly deflated the south's morale to fight.
The capture of Richmond in 62 would not have signified an immediate end to the war, but it would have significantly deflated the south's morale to fight.
I don't think the capture of Richmond would have been enough by itself to end the war, but I think that it would have broken the back of the Confederacy. No chance of European recognition, loss of important industrial capacity, loss of morale. If Richmond had been captured early, it would only have been a matter of time until the end. Where, south of Richmond, would Johnston have made a stand?
There would have been a significant pause after the fall of Richmond, even with an energetic Union commander. Time to consolidate and make overtures to the rebelling states to rejoin the Union.
But I think that South Carolina was not going to acquiese until troops actually entered her territory and took Charleston.
But given this, would Lincoln still have issued the emancipation proclaimation? What would reconstruction have looked like with a shorter war?
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
What timewalker said. South Carolina still had plenty of *****. And Texas was, well, Texas. If you don't get Jeff Davis to toss in his cards, you don't get out without a knock-down drag-out war.
I generally believe that the whole mess could have been avoided. But it wasn't and there's no going back to if, then. No. Lincoln couldn't back down. Davis couldn't back down. Wasn't nobody could back down, given the time and the feelings. So we lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 620,000 young men. (Nevermind the 2,000,000 southern civilians.) For why?
So one could own a person? So one could resent others who spoke against owning a person? Doesn't much look like it was worth it.
And now, a nap.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
If Richmond fell to the union in 1862, the war would have had to become a guerilla won in the east. The union would have pressed further south with no sizable army in front of them.
Davis would have advocated guerilla warfare. In the west there still would have been armies to deal with for awhile but they would have been subdued by 1864.
The war of large armies would have over by 1864 but the guerilla war may have lasted until 1870's.
It was the deprivation of war and Lee's leadership that keep the civil war from turning into a guerilla war.
It defeat came to soon then the south would have gone into the bush and fought on maybe ten more years.
What about northern resolve been like by 1864 if a guerilla war was being wage in the south with no end insight. Lincoln may not have had a second term.
No Emancipation, No Reconstruction and No Peace only low scale warfare for years.
The war would have gone from one about slavery and States Rights to one of revolution and freedom.
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"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
I've been looking for someone to advance the idea that, had McClellan stomped the snot out of the AoNV on September 17, 1862, we'd be looking at a considerably larger population than we have.
Grant was already pushing Bragg all over the west. And Price wasn't doing all that well across the river. Take out Lee and Richmond folds. The war might have ended as early as '63.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
I've been looking for someone to advance the idea that, had McClellan stomped the snot out of the AoNV on September 17, 1862, we'd be looking at a considerably larger population than we have.
Grant was already pushing Bragg all over the west. And Price wasn't doing all that well across the river. Take out Lee and Richmond folds. The war might have ended as early as '63.
ole
And McClellan would have been president in '64? (The army vote going to McClellan instead of Lincoln)
What would reconstruction have looked like under McClellan and the Democrats? He was an able administrator, but I don't think Little Mac would have made a very good president. Seems to me he believed he was always the smartest man in the room and had no problem telling others so.
__________________ "There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals figthing in it... Of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent." David Donald, Lincoln Reconsidered (1961)
And McClellan would have been president in '64? (The army vote going to McClellan instead of Lincoln)
What would reconstruction have looked like under McClellan and the Democrats? He was an able administrator, but I don't think Little Mac would have made a very good president. Seems to me he believed he was always the smartest man in the room and had no problem telling others so.
Timewalker,
I think a variant of your question is the key one: would there a have been any reconstruction at all?
If the South had been defeated and sought readmission in 1862, my guess is no. No reconstruction, no emancipation, no Thirteenth (slavery) or Fourteenth (national citizenship, privileges or immunities) Amendments, etc., etc.
From this standpoint, one starts thinking that it was a good thing that Little Mac got his butt kicked on the Peninsula.
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