Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
Lively speculation, eh? Too many posts to respond individually.
Neither army had the overwhelming strength to punch each other into submission. No matter how badly defeated, both had the strength to come back tomorrow.
Doubt very much that Lincoln, at this point, would have sacked Grant for excessive casualties. He kept Grant on even after heaps of criticism on Grant's losses. I don't think even more losses would have changed his mind. I usually figure that, in mid-1864, Lincoln was about up to here with the war -- he wanted it over; the sooner the better and hang the cost.
I have no doubt that Lee might have mauled Grant severiously at the North Anna. But I have no doubt that Grant would have kept edging south, even with a mauling.
Just a thought.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Lively speculation, eh? Too many posts to respond individually.
Neither army had the overwhelming strength to punch each other into submission. No matter how badly defeated, both had the strength to come back tomorrow.
Doubt very much that Lincoln, at this point, would have sacked Grant for excessive casualties. He kept Grant on even after heaps of criticism on Grant's losses. I don't think even more losses would have changed his mind. I usually figure that, in mid-1864, Lincoln was about up to here with the war -- he wanted it over; the sooner the better and hang the cost.
I have no doubt that Lee might have mauled Grant severiously at the North Anna. But I have no doubt that Grant would have kept edging south, even with a mauling.
Just a thought.
ole
What is Lee had mauled Hancocks Corp at North Anna so bad that Grant was forced to transfer a Corp from Sherman's army, maybe even two.
The war may have had a different out come in 1864 becuse with Sherman under strenght army. He may not have taken Atlanta in the fall of 1864 and Lincoln may not have been elected.
1865 would have been starting at a different starting point with Sherman still in TN. and a new leader in the White house.
Grant may not have had a free hand anymore and once the body count started going up. He may have been sacked in 1865.
What would have happen if Grant had been forced to transfer a corp or two form Sherman to the AoP?
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
If Grant loses a corps and Lee loses nothing, he still outnumbers Lee....he'll have Sherman reinforce alright - the same way he's coming, north through the Carolinas....
Grant is different from the other Army of the Potomac commanders, just because he gets repulsed doesn't mean Grant takes his toys and high tails it back to Washington like McDowell, et al.
Grant would accept it and move to Lee's right (or left)
There were reinforcements closer than Sherman, 33,000 men in the Army of the James.
For my wonderful what if.. Lets say the AoJ lead so boldly but Butler that it tries to smash out of Bermuda Hundred only to destroy his army.. Now can Grant take a few of Sherman's corps...
__________________
"States Rights are about States Wrongs" - Jesse Jackson
My great grandfather's 35th MA Regiment of the IX Corps led the assault on May 24th at Quarles Mill Ford ordered by a drinking General Leddlie. In the confusion of this fiasco he was captured and spent the rest of the war in Rebel prisons. There is a book on this battle,To the North Anna River: Grant and Lee, May 13-25, 1864 ... , by Gordon C. Rhea, that I have.
From his diary:
May 24th, 1864
"Slept soundly, woke fully refreshed. Lounged about under orders to be ready to move at once until 1 p.m., when were again on the march. It was warm and dusty. One mile brought us to the No Anna river. This we forded water hip deep, the bottom of the river rough and rocky, the current strong. Swung our haversacks (heavy with 3 days rations) and our cartridge boxes over our heads and shoulders. Some were unlucky enough to get upset and came near getting drowned. After crossing our brigade was formed in battle line. Our regiment deployed as skirmishers, and led the advance through a thick fine wood, ravines and rough places in plenty with here and there an open space, going some of the way at double quick time. We soon met the rebel picket line which fell back at our advance saluting us at the first with a few stray shots, a half a mile or more brought us to an open field beyond which we could see the rebel breastworks, batteries and infantry in battle line. Halted until our brigade came up when a general attack was made upon the rebel line in our front with the result of driving them through the wood and across a ravine some eight feet deep and back to their main line. Continuing the advance we were met with such a shower of shell, grape, and cannister combined with a sudden downpour of rain that our little were broken and orders were given to fall back to breastwork which our reserves had thrown up in our rear. In the scrimmage our regiment line was broken up as we fell back through the woods. Suddenly found myself alone with three of our 35th and the main body of the 56th. Going up to General Leddlie, I asked for the whereabouts of the 35th. He said they were all mixed up with the other regiments and I had better go in with 56th. Joined them and tried to find some of the 35th, but in vain, and soon concluded that the place for me was with my own regiment and started back to the river. Soon came upon Captain Hudson, and Co. H., who were doing picket duty on the left. He did not know where the rest of the regiment was. We remained in quiet for near an hour when a downpour of rain came on in the midst of which the rebels succeeded in getting on our flank, which caused a “grand skedaddle” on our part towards the river. We stopped to give a wounded man some water. I got separated and found myself alone and mid the rain, mist and wood began to be in doubt as to the line of retreat when I came upon Lt. Creasy, and two other staff officers chatting unconcernedly and so felt all right and kept on coming out to open field when I came upon a line of skirmishers lying upon the ground. Marched towards them supposing them our own men when suddenly a half a dozen or more jumped up took aim and yelled out “drop that gun”-kept towards them yelling out “don’t fire on your men”, only to receive a second yell from them. Then to suddenly realize that death or surrender was my alternative and with a feeling of shame and mortification, threw down my gun which I had hoped to carry home (with scar of rebel bullet received at Jackson, Mississippi) as a memorandum of the war. Was soon taken in charge by a member of the 7th Alabama with a reproof for not dropping my gun at their first call, and the remark that in “another minute you would of been a dead man.” Marched to the rear was relieved of rubber blanket, shelter tent, and cartridge box, and found myself with about 25 more unfortunates. Was humiliated to find myself alone of the 35th at first but not for long, for soon came in the three staff officers, and five comrades of the 35th. Were marched about a mile to Andersons station where we found more of wearers of the blue and by night we numbered about 70. Our guards treated us well. As we stretched out upon mother earth another shower greeted us so that with our previous duckings we were so well soaked that our weary bodies soon forgot it all in “nature’s sweet restorer balmy sleep.”
__________________ "Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
"Brigadier General James Ledlie’s brigade of Crittenden’s division led the Federal advance on Ox Ford that afternoon. Ledlie, one of many Union political generals, was rash, tactically inept, and fond of the bottle—qualities that would cost his men dearly that day. He sent out the 35th Massachusetts as skirmishers, and these veterans slowly pushed back Mahone’s and Sanders’s weary sharpshooters, who occasionally paused long enough to throw a shot back at them. After moving through thick brush for a mile or so they entered a cleared area near Ox Ford and came up against the western face of Lee’s defensive line. On the rising ground before them some of the most formidable fortifications of the war stared down at them, covered by a line of rifle pits into which the Confederate sharpshooters had withdrawn. Ledlie, who by all accounts had had a snootful (as did, apparently, most of his staff), recklessly decided to assault the works and take Ox Ford. It was madness, as everyone knew but he. The men of the 35th Massachusetts entered the clearing and started trading shots with the Confederate sharpshooters, then drew back. “Come on to Richmond!” came a taunt from the trenches." "Ledlie formed the green 56th, 57th, and 59th Massachusetts into two lines, stationed them to the right of the reformed 35th, and sent their skirmishers forward to clear the rifle pits. After a nasty and indecisive fight failed to take them, he ordered in his line of battle. Under gathering storm clouds the grayback riflemen started to pick off the newcomers, who lost their formation as they broke into a wild charge. As the Bay Staters neared the earthworks the Confederate batteries opened up, mowing down whole squads with grape and canister. A violent summer thunderstorm boomed into life, soaking Yankee and Confederate alike. In the pandemonium the Massachusetts men tried to form around their colors, but the Confederates shot them down and launched a counterattack, breaking them and capturing 150 men as the rest scrambled back to the ford at Quarles’s Mill. The Union command had begun to get an inkling of the sort of defense they faced. As for Ledlie, he not only survived but assumed division command when General Crittenden stepped down two weeks later. In the months ahead he would have one more major role to play."
Go figure! Ledlie gets promoted and my great grandfather gets Andersonville!
__________________ "Those who forget to remember the past are condemned to repeat it", George Santayana.
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