Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
I think Longstreet is heavily influences by Fredericksburg. He feels the defensive nature of the conflict well. I don't understand why we don't take him at his word that he believes in the strategic offensive but tactical defensive. I say, in my opinion, that Longstreet is going to do everything in his power to get between Meade and Washington and to reproduce a Fredericksburg.
Even under the best of circumstances (actually being able to make a flanking march, undetected And Unmolested) such a flanking movement, would not necessarily have provoked Meade into a headlong attack. If Longstreet was aware of the advantage of the properly prepared defensive over the frontal offensive, how much more was Meade aware of that advantage? Did, Meade, EVER order an all-out attack at Anytime, while he was in complete control of the AoP?
Strategically, being between the AoP and the Capital in Va. is not the same as the same situation in Pa.
Such a maneuver, presupposes that Meade would make a frontal attack rather than move a little bit to the South and get between Longstreet and Va.
Moving between Meade and the Washington Defenses would require Longstreet to abandon his LOC and if Meade does not take the bait and attack where Lontgstgreet wants him too, how long will his ammunition and supplies last before he is surrounded or forced to flee to the Potomac as best he can?
Moving between Meade and the Washington Defenses would require Longstreet to abandon his LOC and if Meade does not take the bait and attack where Lontgstgreet wants him too, how long will his ammunition and supplies last before he is surrounded or forced to flee to the Potomac as best he can?
Perzackle! Wish I'd has said that.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
The confederate armies, rarely had time on their side and it is a sign of the ill-luck of the ANV (no matter who commanded) that in Pa. Lee (or Longstreet) faced a general who fought as if he had all the time in the world.
If there was ever a time and place where the strategic offensive/tactical defensive maneverings by the ANV was doomed to failure, it was in Pa. against Meade. In fact, in Pa. such a plan seems to have been better suited to the AoP and it's Commanding General, Meade, rather than Lee or Longstreet (as Lee seems to have understood, in actual fact).
Lee figured he had just enough to get up there, raise some hell, and have a chance to whip the AotP. He didn't figure to get stopped and spend more than a day in one place. Meade had a rock solid LoC. He could have stayed near Gettysburg all summer, if he had wanted. And fed the town, to boot.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
If Longstreet could have press toward Philly or Washington, Meade would have been forced engage him. He could have done his offence/defense thing he mention in his memoirs.
When Lee came up with this plan to raid PA. It was suppose to emulate what Gen. Scott did in Mexico, live off the land.
A note: There is a river just north to northeast of Gettysburg and if Lee or Longstreet could have made it to it and crossed it then things would have been much different.
The river is the Schuylkill and it runs all the way to Philly. If Lee or Longstreet could have cross it, putting the river between them and the AoP, with a straight shot to Philly and Amish farm lands to live off.
Meade would have been forced to do something! Think of the political pressure on Meade and Lincoln if Philly fell to Lee or Longstreet.
All we have today, is the historical record of the people and their actions during the CW and that record does not indicate that Longstreet would have pushed the invasion to a decisive conclusion, Unless he could induce Meade to make a frontal attack on a dug-in ANV.
Even after winning at Gettysburg (on the Tactical Defensive) Meade, was impervious to the entreaties, threats, bribes etc from both Lincoln and Halleck to pursue and destroy the retreating ANV before it crossed the Potomac.
With his pontoon train missing, Longstreet would, IMO, be more likely to view any rivers between his army and Va. as barriers to his LOC (especially his line-of-retreat) rather than aids to continuing the offensive.
Again, Time is a limiting factor for the ANV in Pa. and moving closer to any major cities only increases the danger of being surrounded in enemy territory.
The old adage about not basing ones plans on what the opponent should do as opposed what they could do, is very appropriate here and we 'know' (as well as one can know anything in this world) that given more options than, just, a frontal attack on a prepared position, Meade would not have automatically chosen that particular option, very quickly, IF At All.
Meade would not have automatically chosen that particular option, very quickly, IF At All.
Especially when he knew that he didn't have to. The AoNV could not afford to stay in one spot waiting for an attack, especially since the territory behind it had been foraged already, and since the Union Cavalry was still a formidible force.
Consider marching east with 5 untouched Federal Corps t-boning your route? Naaah.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
never read what General Robert E. Lee said his options were and come up with a brand new battle made out of their "own cloth."
Why study the battle and the reports, when it's more fun to set up one's own battle.
One can have Longstreet going around the Union army; one can have it attack Philadelphia; one can have the Confederate army entrench and await an attack; one can totally ignore the topography in Adams County; one can ignore the Army of Northern Virginia's supply problems. Why one can absolutely ignore what Robert E. Lee said about the battle.
That seems absolutely essential for the "armchair" generals, who make all their own assumptions.
..."It had not been intended to deliver a general battle so far from our base unless attacked, but coming unexpectedly upon the whole Fed-eral Army, to withdraw through the mountains with our extensive trains would have been difficult and dangerous. At the same time we were unable to await an attack, as the country was unfavorable for collecting supplies in the presence of the enemy, who could re-strain our foraging parties by holding the mountain passes with local and other troops. A battle had, therefore, become in a measure un-avoidable, and the success already gained gave hope of a favorable issue..."
R.E. LEE,
General.
For some it's a little too difficult to research the Battle of Gettysburg, and confront a problem Lee faced.
We can always count on Whitworth to bring up some rationale and sanity to our ramblings. Thank you, Whitworth.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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