Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
Hindsight being 20/20 we know that Lee's Gettysburg Campaign ends in failure, but overall its not a terrible strategic allocation of resources. The Confederates pointed a blow at the Union heart and at the time the decision was made most agreed.
It was a judgement call, but hindsight does recognize that the judgement was faulty and ultimately disastrous.
Much of the blame being Davis' for treating Lee as a fellow soldier rather than as a Commander-In-Chief to one of his generals (of which, he was only one).
It is more easy to forgive Lee's natural myopia concerning his army and theatre of operations (if not his infatuation with being a Virginian). But as political leader, the concerns of the entire csa should have outweighed the personal wishes of one of his Lt. Generals. A map of the west with pins marking out the flow of war from 1861 to 1863 should have been very instructive to president, even without any military training.
As others (including me) have pointed out; although the war could be lost in the East, it would be won in the west.
P.S. It can be argued that Lincoln and Davis recognized the importance of the West, but, if so, only Lincoln (the one with no formal military training) was ready and willing to do all things necessary to ensure victory in the west.
P.S. It can be argued that Lincoln and Davis recognized the importance of the West, but, if so, only Lincoln (the one with no formal military training) was ready and willing to do all things necessary to ensure victory in the west.
Being genetically cursed with contrarianism, I might argue that Lincoln learned more about war in a year of reading than Jeff Davis learned in 20 years of being in it. Seems that Lincoln went into it knowing that he knew diddly-squat, whereas Jeff went into it convinced that he knew everything there was to know.
I've been wrong before.
ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
This particular 'What If' has been discussed rather thoroughly in other threads and posts and I have come away with the distinct impression, that although such a move was, objectively, (even without the benefit of hindsight) the better plan for the best use of the limited resources and manpower of the confederacy than Lee's invasion of Pa. It would, probably, Not have materially affected the outcome of the war or have prolonged it to any significant degree.
Even If sent just after Chancellorsville, more than a single corps (even led by Longstreet) was needed to retrieve southern fortunes in the West. As others have pointed out, southern efforts no matter how resourceful or gallant, it was always a case of them being a day late and a dollar short. They were trying to fight an unlimited war with limited means.
You guys have got your black and blue blinders on. You can't see it.
They didn't have to defeat US Grant in the west. Just stall him a bit. Hold him up. Threaten his rear. He could not beseige Vicksburg with Longstreet nippin' at his heels. He'd be forced to retreat and that my friends would've been all she wrote for the Union.
No Gettysburg. No Vicksburg. Lincoln does not get re-elected.
They would have to have done one of two things, either Johnston, and Longstreet would actually be under his command, would have to drive straight for Vicksburg, in conjunction with Pemberton, or he'd have to veer to the northeast and threaten Grant's rear to hopefully make him voluntarily relinquish his grip on Vicksburg.
I think we are contemplating that very possibility, I know I said northeast, I do mean to go after Grant's supply source.
Due to the configuration of the Mississippi River, I believe Grants supply bases (he had more than one) were mostly on the West Bank of the River and West of Vicksburg. To attack from Jackson (or Clinton) Johnston would have to pass close by Grants Siege Lines at Vicksburg. Doubtful that Johnston would contemplate attacking Grants Whole Army, especially as he would have to deal with Grants special corps (commanded by Sherman) formed especially to interdict and slow down any rebel attempts to relieve Vicksburg.
Ozark, no blinders just a knowledge of actual history. Longstreet failed dismally at Knoxville and while he is one of my favorite CS Generals most of his victories were against the AoP... AoC & AoT US were a different breed.
If he could be so completely stymied at Knoxville how do you think he would have fared against Shermans command in Mississippi? Even w/ his Corps he would not have had enough men to hurt Grant at Vicksburg. If he had opted to go after one of the Supply bases. That was tried and the CS found themselves w/ quite a bit of egg on their faces... by newly raised inexperianced USCT men.
__________________ Shane Christen
American Legion Post 352
SUVCW Camp Abernethy# 48
Lifetime NRA member
3rd MN VI
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. Eccl 1:18
I think Davis made the best call by backing his most proven and successful general and his best army.
Longstreet had not done that well in independent command at Knoxville. He had been decisive at Chickamanga but Bragg had not been able to capitalize on that victory. The real solution is not the West plus Longstreet, but the West minus Bragg, and probably Johnston. Otherwise the force that Longstreet provides would not be used effectively.
Johnston is the graycoat McClellan. Adminstratively he had real talent(and in an organization like the CS army, built from nearly scratch, and always improvising its logistics, that's valuable). But in the field he could neither attack or defend effectively.
I'm going to start another thread: the ideal CS command structure for the West.
Due to the configuration of the Mississippi River, I believe Grants supply bases (he had more than one) were mostly on the West Bank of the River and West of Vicksburg. To attack from Jackson (or Clinton) Johnston would have to pass close by Grants Siege Lines at Vicksburg. Doubtful that Johnston would contemplate attacking Grants Whole Army, especially as he would have to deal with Grants special corps (commanded by Sherman) formed especially to interdict and slow down any rebel attempts to relieve Vicksburg.
His supply line was very long tho. Although it was west of Vicksburg and on the west bank, he had to have it sent south then across the river then north to the army. Remember now, if something happened and he did have to retreat and abort Vicksburg campaign his gun boats were lost for the rest of the war. There was no way they would have made the gauntlet again especially agaisnt the current.
__________________ "In mortal combat, a man may and will become so infuriated by the din and dangers of a bloody fight that his heart will turn to stone and his every de sire [be] for blood."
John Hadley, 7th Indiana after the battle at Port Republic
CivilWarTalk.com -
A free and friendly Civil War community. 
Not that bad 
Linear Mode
