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Civil War History - "What if..." Discussions What if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!

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  #1  
Old 08-18-2007, 01:50 PM
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Default What if the CSA had re-enforced Gen. Sterling Price at Lexington, MO?

"Battle of the Hemp Bales", by Dale Gallon

I just wonder what ya'll are gonna say about the Battle of Lexington, Missouri. The Battle of the Hemp Bales September 18, 19, & 20, 1861.
Quote:
Early in September, General Fremont ordered the Lexington post to secure a forced loan from the Farmers' Bank of Lexington. This seizing of the bank's entire funds of nearly a million dollars further strained the relations between the Union soldiers and the pro-Southern people of Lexington.

I'd call that irregular warfare. How 'about you?

Last edited by Ozark Iron John; 08-18-2007 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 08-18-2007, 02:12 PM
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Gen. John C. Fremont (1813-1890)

One of the most famous and popular of explorers, grew
up the illegitimate child of a prominent woman of Virginia society, and a penniless French refugee.

The circumstances of his birth made Fremont an
ambitious social climber. Throughout his career he would seek out the patronage of powerful men, first in Charleston, South Carolina, where he went to college, and later in Washington, D.C. His first important patron was diplomat Joel Poinsett, who obtained for Fremont his
first assignment, helping the army survey the southern Appalachian mountains. Poinsett later helped organize the Corps of Topographical Engineers, a group of surveyors and mapmakers at the service of the army. Poinsett saw to it that Fremont was named to the Corps’ first major Western project, an expedition into the country between the upper Mississippi and Missouri Rivers in 1838.

Although only adequate at the first job of making maps and surveying, Fremont proved to be a master promoter in his second job. With his wife Jessie’s help, Fremont’s written, published accounts of his expeditions became wildly popular with the public, and he became known as the "Pathfinder."

Fremont’s expeditions, while not accomplishing a great deal scientifically, were very important in advancing the cause of "Manifest Destiny".
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Old 08-18-2007, 02:26 PM
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Captain Nathanial Lyons

This monster was dead. Old Pap and the boys came to the aid of their friends and family along the Missouri River in Lexington. They weren't about to let Fremont run off with all that gold.

Last edited by Ozark Iron John; 08-22-2007 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 08-18-2007, 02:37 PM
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The battle didn't last that long. Three day seige primarily. Them boys behind the hemp bales made quick work of their part and the Yankees capitulated.

I suggest to you that if Gen. Ben McCulloch of Arkansas CSA had re-enfored old Pap and his Missouri State Guard boys on the Missouiri River at Lexington, Missouri, the whole war would've ended in 1861. St. Louis would've gone with the Confederacy and Kentucky would've followed suit quickly.

Lincoln woiuld've sued for peace with the two big rivers (Ohio and Missouri) bein' the restored boarder between North and South, Free and Slave.

Jeff Davis and Ben McCulloch made a desperate mistake in the fall of 1861. McCulloch would not invade Missouri and Davis would not order it. There was enough of that goin' on from Kansas, Iowa and Illinois. They refused to be a part of it and doomed Missouri to Northern occupation and utlimately the Southland to defeat.

I suggest to you all, what if the CSA had re-enforced Gen. Sterling Price at Lexington, MO?

Last edited by Ozark Iron John; 08-18-2007 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 08-18-2007, 02:59 PM
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The Original Ozark Iron John

"For God and our Rights", by Dale Gallon

Last edited by Ozark Iron John; 08-22-2007 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 08-18-2007, 03:18 PM
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If McCulloch had been able to get past his long standing fued with Price and at the very least had sent at least part of his force to reinforce at Lexington then yes I think that you can make a good case that Price could have made a strong advance toward St. Louis.

Depending on the Federal response the speed at which Price moved and the further reinforcement of the advance the fall of Saint Louis could have taken Missouri out of the Union and given the CS a hammerlock on the Mississippi.

McCulloch in my humble opinion should have probably been relieved after Oak Hills and his refusal to attack because of his ill feelings toward the Missouri troops and attitude he continued to display until his death.

Whether or not the advance would have been successful would have largely been the ability of Price to establish momentum.
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Old 08-18-2007, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderruffian
McCulloch in my humble opinion should have probably been relieved after Oak Hills and his refusal to attack because of his ill feelings toward the Missouri troops and attitude he continued to display until his death.

Jefferson Davis said, ""I have attended reviews of the armies of General Pierre G. T. Beauregard, Bragg, Albert Sidney, and Joseph E. Johnston, and also in the old United States service, and I have never seen a finer looking body of men nor or more soldierly appearance and efficiency, nor have I ever witnessed better drill or discipline in any army since I have belonged to the military service" of them Missouri troops. The South's Finest.

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Old 08-18-2007, 04:26 PM
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Gen. Sterling Price

I don't think anybody doubt's old Pap's ability to get them boys goin'.

Last edited by Ozark Iron John; 08-22-2007 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 08-18-2007, 04:36 PM
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But here in lies the rub.

The commanders in The CS Army of the West and the Trans-Mississippi Dept. at the time could'nt agree to disagree on the proper course of action.
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  #10  
Old 08-18-2007, 04:40 PM
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Gen. Ben McCulloch

How 'bout you West Point boys draw down on that'n, would ya?


Quote:
by B. M. Hord.

Ben McCulloch was born in Rutherford County, Tenn, November 11, 1811, of Scotch-Irish ancestry. His father, Maj. Alexander McCulloch, was a veteran of the wars of 1812-15, participating in the battle of New Orleans, and was aid-decamp to Gen. Coffee in the campaign against the Creek Indians. He moved to West Tennessee when that portion of the State was very sparsely settled and known as the Western District of Tennessee. There were no school facilities, but fortunately Maj. McCulloch owned an extensive library for that day, of which young Ben was a diligent and retentive reader, but the wild country, the abundance of game, and a close and intimate association with the sons of Davy Crockett, and with the famous Tennesseean himself, stimulated a natural love in young McCulloch for woodcraft, hunting, and shooting, qualities in which he excelled and that were valuable to him in after years in his border warfare with the Indians and Mexicans on the Texas frontier and battlefields of Mexico. When Texas was making a fight for her independence of Mexico, the adventurous spirit of young McCulloch, encouraged by his older friend, Col. Davy Crockett, prompted him to cast his fortunes with this little band of patriots. A severe illness prevented his meeting with Crockett in Texas, or doubtless he would have been, with his friend, a member of the heroic garrison massacred in the Alamo. At the battle. of San Jacinto Gen. Houston gave him command of a piece of artillery. It was McCulloch’s first experience with a gun of this kind (he afterwards became an expert in the use of all kinds of firearms, and as such was sent to Europe by the United States to examine and report upon all the most improved weapons of war); but he fought his little gun at San Jacinto, advancing “hand to front” after every discharge, until within less than a hundred and fifty yards of the Mexican lines, when Houston, at the head of his little army, rushed by him on a charge that routed the Mexicans. “For conspicuous gallantry,” Gen. Houston promoted the quiet and modest young Tennesseean on the field to first lieutenant of artillery. The battle of San Jacinto established the Republic of Texas, and McCulloch was elected a member of her Congress. After peace was proclaimed, he settled at Gonzales to follow his profession of surveyor, but his time was about evenly divided between surveying and, as captain of a company of Rangers, fighting Indians and Mexicans, who were constantly depredating on the settlers. When hostilities opened between the United States and Mexico he promptly joined, with his company of Rangers, the forces under Gen. Taylor, with whom he served until the close of the war, winning a national reputation as a gallant soldier, and from that sturdy old warrior, Gen. Taylor, the rank of major with the encomium of ôa bold, daring, successful scout and desperate fighter,ö and in his official report of the battle of Buena Vista he says: “The success of the day was largely due to the information furnished by Maj. McCulloch.”
He was a member of the first Legislature that assembled in the State of Texas; was appointed by President Pierce Marshal of the Eastern District, a position he held for nearly eight, years; but when a bill passed Congress in 1855, creating a new cavalry regiment, so brilliant and successful had been his services in the war with Mexico that, notwithstanding he was a civilian, a strong pressure from all parts of the country was brought to bear upon the administration for his appointment as colonel of the regiment. The friends of Gen. Albert Sidney Johnston were also pressing his claims for the same position. In the life of this great soldier, written by his son, Col. William Preston Johnston, he says: “That gallant and popular partisan leader, Maj. Ben. McCulloch, was vehemently pressed for the same appointment (colonel of the Second Cavalry), but it was Gen. Johnston’s good fortune to have in the Secretary of War (Jefferson Davis) a friend who had known him from boyhood and who esteemed him as high as any man living. McCulloch, not having received the rank of colonel, refused the rank of major tendered him. He had been a gallant and enterprising leader of partisan troops, and deserved well of his country. His nomination for major was a high compliment, as he was the only field officer selected from civil life.”
It was indeed a high compliment to McCullochÆs ability as a soldier, for this regiment was officered by Albert Sidney Johnston as colonel and R. E. Lee as lieutenant colonel. W. J. Hardee (appointed to the majorship declined by McCulloch) and George H. Thomas were the majors, and from its subordinate officers came more distinguished generals on both sides in the War between the States than any other regiment in the United States army. Mr. Davis, as Secretary of War, and later as President of the Confederacy, was averse to appointing any one to high military rank in the field who was not a West Pointer or who had not demonstrated his ability to command; but he had, as colonel of a Mississippi regiment, served in the same column with McCulloch under Gen. Taylor in the Mexican war, and was familiar with the services he had rendered. On the bloody and hard-fought field of Buena Vista, after victory had been won, he unwound his own sash from his person and tied it on McCulloch in appreciation of the gallant services he had rendered that day. And in evidence of his appreciation of McCulloch’s ability, the first commission as brigadier general issued to a civilian in the Confederate States army, and among the first issued to any one, was to Gen. Ben McCulloch, of ærexas. In fact, at the time this commission was issued there were but four officers in the Confederate army, in the field, who ranked him---Gens. A. S. Johnston, Joe Johnston, Beauregard, and Bragg. The commissions of Gens. R. E. Lee and Ben McCulloch as brigadiers bear the same date, May 14, 1861.
Of these distinguished generals, only A. S. Johnston and Ben McCulloch were killed in battle. Both fell early in the war—McCulloch at Elkhorn or Pea Ridge, March 7, 1862; Johnston a month later almost to a day, at Shiloh, April 6, 1862, and both under strikingly like circumstances: both at the flood tide of victory, and the troops of both defeated after they fell; but McCulloch, before he fell, had fought and won, at Wilson’s Creek, the most complete and decisive victory over the Federal generals Lyon and Siegel that up to that time had been fought west of the Mississippi.
McCulloch. was as magnanimous as he was brave. After declining the rank of major in the Second Cavalry, President Pierce appointed him, with Gov. Powell, of Kentucky, Peace Commissioner to Utah to settle the troubles then existing betweenÆ the Mormons and the United States. The Second Cavalry, under Col. A. S. Johnston, was sent to support the demands of the Commissioners. After returning from his successful mission a friend of Col. Johnston’s, writing him from Washington, says: “Ben McCulloch told me yesterday that he was rejoiced that you had been appointed, instead of himself, colonel of the regiment, as, from close observation in Utah, he believed you were the best man that could have been sent there.” (“Life of A. S. Johnston.”)
He was wonderfully magnetic. The assembled convention that passed the ordinance of secession in his State commissioned him to collect as soon as possible a force sufficient to capture the United States garrison at San Antonio. Such was his popularity that within less than three days, at his call, eight hundred men had assembled, and the garrison, under Gen. Twiggs, with all of its ordnance and supplies, surrendered without firing a gun. He shrank almost to timidity from notoriety, never wore a uniform or insignia of rank of any kind, except a star on his hat, hut was scrupulously neat in his dress, and when killed had on a suit of black velvet. Texas, as yet, has done herself but little credit in honoring the memory of one whose name adds luster to the brightest pages of her glorious history; one who with strong arm and matchless courage helped to hold aloft the wavering lone star flag of an unborn Republic: one who stood in the shock of battle from Matamoras to Buena Vista that she might join the sisterhood of States; one who, at her behest, led her gallant sons to victory beneath the battle flag of the Confederacy, and, on the bloody field of Elkhorn, in front of his victorious legions, yielded up the life that he had gallantly risked a hundred times for the honor and glory of Texas. No more deserving or heroic dust rests beneath her historic sod than that of Ben McCulloch, yet no monument marks his resting place save a block of Texas granite, placed there by his nephew, Capt. Ben E. McCulloch, bearing the words: “Brigadier General Ben McCulloch, killed at Elkhorn, Ark., March 7, 1862, aged fifty years. Patriot, Soldier, Gentleman. He gave his life for Texas.”

Last edited by Ozark Iron John; 08-22-2007 at 11:42 PM.
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