Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
He probably would have. But I think Lee would have beat him earlier. I doubt it would have gotten to the third day.
And how, pray tell, do you figger that? First day, pretty much the same. Second day, Grant wouldn't have been waiting for Lee to make his move. Might've been close to the same, as the corps were still assembling, but I'll wager that Longstreet would've been slapped around a bit before he got his act together. Upshot -- Longstreet doesn't get to attack. (Remember, this is a what if.) Grant rarely allows the opponent to gain an initiative. The 2nd day position wasn't that good on the Union left and Grant would not have waited for Longstreet to exploit it. There would have been no 3rd day.
So, Brigance. Why do you think Lee would have beat him earlier?
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
IMO it would depend on how long Grant had been in command. If fresh and untried like Meade, then I think the quality of his corps commanders might give him pause, as they would probably have appeared to Grant as an uninspiring, not very confident lot.
Lee fought a very conventional battle with little manuevering or attempts at deception (even Meade was able to deduce Lee's plan for the third day).
To attack immediately, after Pickett's Charge, would, from Grant's view, seem to be a all or nothing try to destroy the ANV. I think it might have been a big temptation to Grant, but it is more likely, IMO that Grant would feel constrained by Lincoln's and Stantons, orders to defeat and/or destroy the invaders, But, not to take any chances, either. I think it would have been a 50/50 chance of success, but I do not know how Grant would have assessed the chance.
If he did not attack immediately, I do not doubt that he would have set about organizing for an immediate attack and pursuit as soon as possible and it is unlikely that he would have waited more that 24 or 36 hours to start his offensive and he would have pressed the attack attack and pursuit to the fullest extent possible (not unlike his pursuit of Leet from Five Forks to Appomattox).
If Grant kept the AoP concentrated and constantly moving forward as close to the ANV as possible not giving Lee a chance to stop and prepare and using his cavalry to get behind and slow the retreat, it would be a near run thing if Lee could escape being surrounded or at least brought to another major battle before leaving Pa.
If Grant assumed command further back in time to Chancellorsville, things get more and more iffy.
It is not likely that Grant would have lost his nerve, like Hooker and Lee's victory would have been less decisive at best and might have lost the battle at worst.
In relation to Gettysburg, it has to be assumed Grant lost at Chancellorsville, but IMO less than decisively and we have to assume that political constraints from the White House and/or the War Dept, would delay Grant until After Lee begins his Invasion of Pa., Otherwise I do not see Grant just sitting around the Wilderness area waiting to see what Lee will do next.
Given Grants noted reluctance to retrace his steps if not absolutely required i.e., lack of supplies, direct orders, etc. and Lincoln's willingness to send men and equipment to reinforce Grant to a greater degree than other officers in whom he had less confidence., would have, probably, Like Hooker (but but for different reasons) , incline Grant to move south, but the 'what if' question assumes that he (like Hooker) is countermanded to pursue Lee And protect Baltimore and Washington D.C. at the same time.
IMO once ordered to follow Lee, Grant would have moved north immediately, hopefully, he would not lose complete contact with the ANV, but in any case, like Meade, he would have surmised, that Lee could not stay in Pa. indefinitely and a concentrated AoP in his rear would bring Lee to battle quickly enough, as it, in fact did.
IF,Grant had been in charge at Chancellorsville and still lost I do not believe Lee could have made it to Pennsylvania. I'm not very knowledgeable on Chancellorsville, but Grant never let the Confederates rest and/or resupply even when the battle didn't go his way--Siege of Vicksburg. IMO, he would have known Lee was headed to Pennsylvania and would have moved to cut him off.
The north would've lost the war because the Union would not have had the Vicksburg Campaign/seige because Grant would've been in PA. Vicksburg was THE key to the war. Better "what if" what if Lee was defending Vicksburg (I can hear the aghasts now...what...Lee in the western theater...blasphemy man..blasphemy!) I mean think about it. What if Lee decided to defend his home state of...say Mississippi? Any "what if" and switching generals should be given to the western theater. The eastern theater, though important, was not nearly as decisive as was the war fought in the west..... from Ft Donelson to Franklin.
__________________ I was gratified to be able to answer promptly. I said I don't know.
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With Pemberton in command, the Mississippi And Vicksberg would still be under threat, especially if Sherman were in command.
Lincoln might be willing to trade eventual taking of Vicksberg, for the immediate removal of ANV and maybe even Richmond.
In fact, the whole war might be reversed; a holding action in the west, while Union armies win the war in the East.
IMO Lee would/could not fight effectively away from his beloved Va. He was a Virginian, fighting for Va. not a southerner fighting for the confederacy..
With Pemberton in command, the Mississippi And Vicksberg would still be under threat, especially if Sherman were in command.
I don't think Sherman would have had the daring that Grant did. He did with the *******n Campaign and the March to the Sea but that was AFTER he saw Grant acheive sucess. Grant's Vicksburg Campaign went against the military logic of the time. Grant was the genius that proved was illogic.
Lincoln might be willing to trade eventual taking of Vicksberg, for the immediate removal of ANV and maybe even Richmond.
No. Lincoln knew "Vicksburg was the Key"
In fact, the whole war might be reversed; a holding action in the west, while Union armies win the war in the East.
IMO Lee would/could not fight effectively away from his beloved Va. He was a Virginian, fighting for Va. not a southerner fighting for the confederacy..
You prove my point precisely. I had mentioned, "what if Lee HAD been from MS" therefore his alligiance to MS (again the aghast goes up from the crowd" the idea of Lee NOT being from VA is ...well...you might as well kick a dog...) and he fought only in the west...for MS (the CSA crowd goes wild). With that in mind. Now what happens? I am doing this only because nobody EVER does the roles reversed. What if GRANT fought the AoP? What if Sherman fought the AoP? How come it is seldom presented in this "what if" forum (which I think is silly to begin with) takes the AoP commanders to fight the AotT? It is like commiting a grevious sin to propose that scenario...
Your obediant servant..Matt
__________________ I was gratified to be able to answer promptly. I said I don't know.
-Mark Twain
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