Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
Grant was the great siege general of the war. He was in Mississippi where he was sieging Vicksburg.
Gettysburg was a place for the Army of the Potomac to remain on the defensive. I doubt any Union corps commander thought of destroying the Army of Northern Virginia. It was too soon after Chancellorsville.
If Meade had known the Confederates were virtually out of long range artillery on July 3rd, he might have attacked the Confederate right flank and blocked Confederate retreat over the Fairfield road.
Lee accomplished one mission with Pickett's Charge. He kept open two avenues of retreat. One over the Chambersburg-Gettysburg Pike and the over over the Fairfield Road. Lee stunned the AoP enough to make a quick change to the offense by that army, highly unlikely.
Little would the AoP have thought within a day of July 3, that Lee would take his army directly to the Potomac River and back to Virginia, with no great intermediate defense, along the way.
It is very likely that once Grant began his pursuit of Lee, it would resemble his final campaign thru the Wilderness to Petrersburg.
Unlike Meade, it is unlikely that Grant would try to escort the ANV back to Va., as Meade wanted to do.
Although, Lincoln was the only one in authority, in the East, who actually saw Lee's invasion a real opportunity to destroy the ANV. It is not likely that Grant would not have come to the same conclusion, after the battle at Gettysburg.
Drive the retreating ANV west, with the bulk of the AoP, while sending strong forces (along with the newly reconstituted Union Cavalry) to reach around Lee's right flank to keep him from turning south to safety.
The only fly in the ointment, was the notorious slowness of foot of the AoP, caused by too many AoP officers having more confidence in Lee than themselves and the fact that the Union Cavalry did not have a Sheridan in command; though more active, it was still not a slashing, all out, offensive instrument that Grant needed to complete Grants encirclement.
Still, with the knowledge that they had, in fact, beaten Lee And the ANV, Grant may have been able to override the psychological and command deficiencies of his Army and got the job done anyway. After All, even Meade was able to get the most speed out of the AoP of any other general, surpassed, possibly, by Grant pursuit from Five Forks to Appomattox.
I'm not convinced the Grant could have done better than Meade on 4 July. He was more aggressive and would have really tried, but let's look at the situation. There'd been three days of hard fighting following as many days of hard marching. Corps, divisions and their supply trains were scattered all over Adams County. It would have taken at least a day to pull together a force equal to the pursuit of Lee. Sending off anything less would have been foolish.
I sympathize with Lincoln's frustration. Here is the significant symbol of the Confederacy. It's beaten and retreating. A chance to snatch up the ANV and Lee is trickling off to safety. Too much to ask?
Will take issue with "Grant was the great seige general." That he pursued his opponents until they were forced to hole up in an untenable position was likely not his first choice. He preferred to take the initiative away from his opponent and press hard. Even at Petersburg, his army didn't just sit and wait.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
History shows, that in the CW it was extremely difficult for rival armies to destroy one another. An army had to be brought to a stand still in the open and virtually surrounded by superior numbers or forced into fixed works to withstand a siege, to accomplish such a feat.
I agree that after such a hard fought battle as Gettysburg, my scenario would be difficult, but not impossible, to accomplish. But I do think that Grant, would have, at least, tried to pursue and destroy or capture the "ANV. From his history, it can be assumed that Grant would have been much more aggreswsive in his pursuit and kept closer control of the various elements of his command and Lee would have found little time to rest or plan the rather leisurely, retreat he executed against Meade.
Lee would probably, at best, have returned to Va. with considerasbly fewer men and supplies than he actually did, if Grant had been in pursuit instead of Meade.
Lee got away as well as he did, because Meade only wanted the ANV to retreat, not to impede its progress or defeat it in another battle.
Hi Ya'll,
Remember wherever Grant went Sherman followed. So what would they have done at Gettysburg?
He would have used Sherman to keep momentum going.
He would have found a way around obstacles - just like he tried to in Vicksburg.
Grant would have definately capitalized on Lee's retreat. I have no doubt he would have chased him down if he could.
Shoot, It pains me to say but if Grant had been at Gettyburg and been on top of his game, that might of ended the war.
Except I would hope the Joe Johnston would be there too and Grant wouldn't be able to follow cause no one could withdraw as well as Johnston - he always rallied his boys in order to fight another day!
Another interesting 'What If....." question Texas2d.
What If...Joe Johnston could be convinced (coerced?) to serve as Lee's second in command? (OR vice versa, for that matter) Then, We would really be flying in rarefied atmosphere.
This boggles my mind! All of Lee's mistakes wiped out and a more careful consideration of possibilities lead me to believe that old Joe would have given Grant and Sherman a run for thier money.
Johnston and Grant are my two most favorite Generals! Ahh! I can't even contemplate this!
If it was Meade against Joe than lookout!! Without Bragg draggin Joe down, heck, the South coulda won the War!!
Historical evidence, would indicate that if Johnston had retained command of, what later became the ANV, it is a good bet that by 1863, the Easter Theatre of active campaigning would be somewhere in North Or South Carolina.
There is little liklihood, that Johnston would have planned a Northern Invasion nor is it likely that he could have been persuaded to invade Pa. by anyone else.
Johnston had a very fine eye for unfavorable odds and rarely planned or executed full, all out offensives (throwing in the last available man, to achieve a decisive result) of any kind, much less invasion of enemy territory with inferior numbers.
I am not saying that Johnston might not have fought a better war for the South, merely that the circumstances of southern war making abilities and Johnston's command style indicates that he would have , most likely, lost the war and, maybe, much earlier than Lee; it he met Grant sooner.
For most of his Confederate career, Johnston was dismissed by J. Davis, due to family and political disturbances. Add Bragg to that and I see a General whose potential was never even realized.
Look at the Mexican American War.
At Chapultepec, Lt. Colonel Joe Johnston led a battalion, his first independent command and he was brevetted to full colonel for his part in the battle. Future Generals of the ACW took note.
Johnston's views about McClellans peninsular campaign were the same as Lee's.
But when Johnston went against McClellan in Spring 1862, it was Davis who called the commands, even though McClellan, Lee and Johnston were friends and Johnston knew what McCellan was going to do.
Historians who don't like Johnston have to agree that his movement away from Yorktown and McClellan saved the day. He did that despite his orders from Davis.
Who says that Lee's strategy to gain Maryland and the territories using offensive measures was good for the CSA? It depleted tha ANV and gained the CSA nothing!
Johnston had some bad runs in the AoT but his successes were unbelievable to me. Johnston knew how to command , both he and Lee had been with Scott and Taylor in Mexican American war and both Lee and Johnston used those styles of generalship and command as needed.
The men of the AoT certainly preferred Johnston, whom they felt cared about them to a man, to General Hood.
And lastly...look at Bentonville.
Sherman never knew what hit him (a last hurrah for Johnston!).
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Meade was the best general for Gettysburg 
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