Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
The more radical the change required by the 'what if' question, the more permutations, required in selected scenario's.
For instance, Lee was commander of the ANV, he did fight at chancellorsville and he did invade Pa. and he did fight at Gettysburg and he did lose the battle. Grant did command the AoP and he did fight Lee and the ANV, in Va. From what is known historically, rational and logical deductions can be postulated from their historical actions.
The qualities that made Lee so effective in Va, leading an army with mostly Vignian troops and officers. May not have been the qualities required of a Mississippian Lee. Would his army be mostly Mississippians or its' officers? Would he be imbued with a sense of history concerning Mississippi? Would he have been a fervent confederate rather than a fervent son of Mississippi? Would have been willing and able to wage war outside of Ms? The Lee postulated here is unknown, this person never existed. There is no rationality or much logic can do with such a construct.
I know Grant would have counter-attacked but when is unclear. When Floyd, et. al attempted to break out from Fort Donelson, Grant counter-attacked and sealed up the Confederates in Donelson. When Lee attacked Fort Steadman in March, 1865, Grant reasoned that Lee had to weaken his lines to have the strength to attack, so he order a counter-attack.
It seems that the first day was unprobable because much of the AoP was still marching up. The second day was possible, but considering the poor condition of Sickle's Corps it would fall upon Hancock to counter-attack in the center and split the ANV in half. The third day would also be likely, but where I'm unsure.
The advantage of attacking from Big Round Top (actually, south of BRT) is that he could roll up Longstreet and compel Lee to fall back to Gettysburg; making it a little more difficult to disengage and retreat to Virginia. If Grant attacked in the center and split Lee's Army, then the surviving units may not survive a retreat and the ANV would have been destroyed. Dunno. Thoughts?
The main point I am trying to make is...in these "what if" scenarios is..nobody EVER takes Lee out of the eastern theater because...well, I don't know. To the main that are easten affcianados and/or southern studies, it is just wrong to do anything with Lee other than what he did in history. The points about would Lee's MS tropps be as loyal is termed a ficticiuos man! Even though..the whole situation is ficticious itself! Just the question, How would things turn out if Grant lead the forces at G-burg is just a speculative...BUT...it's okay to take Grant out of his element and put him in Lee's court...but we dare not to take Lee out of his elemen. And, actually, Grant WAS taken out of his environment and put in command of the AoP and whooped Lee. Can one say Lee being taken out of the ANV and put in the west...well, I don't think he'd have a chance..and don't say, Lee fought only for the state of VA because if Davis ordered him to go to the west and he declined he would be considered much less a person. VA alone does not the CSA make (though WAY too many people seem to think so)
__________________ I was gratified to be able to answer promptly. I said I don't know.
-Mark Twain
As stated, the Lee of Va. is historical fact, the Lee of Ms, never existed,
All 'what if' questions are basically sterile, because they did not happen, but as exercises of rational thought processes and logical decuction, they have their uses.
Grant was not at Gettysburg, but he was a real person, who was involved in major battles and maneuvers, both acting and reacting.
As pointed out above, Grant was 'forward thinking' 'preferring' the one step forward now, rather than the two steps backwards, to get a better start, later. Grant had a history of attacking after major assaults by the enemy.
As Gary noted, attacking after Pickett's Charge would have been entirely in character for Grant. While even though, I think he might, have hesitated and delayed, because of the constraints of the proximity of Lincoln and Stanton, I noted that there was at least a 50/50 chance that Grant would have counter attacked immediately and would not have been surprised if he had, because he had done it before in , roughtly, similar situations.
Lee as a born and bred Mississippian, fighting in Ms, is an imaginary construct with, practically, No relationship with history, logic or rationality.
As an aside, it might be noted that Grant, during his CW career, fought against most of the Confederacy's major army commanders, including Joe Johnston.
As stated, the Lee of Va. is historical fact, the Lee of Ms, never existed,
All 'what if' questions are basically sterile, because they did not happen, but as exercises of rational thought processes and logical decuction, they have their uses.
Grant was not at Gettysburg, but he was a real person, who was involved in major battles and maneuvers, both acting and reacting.
As pointed out above, Grant was 'forward thinking' 'preferring' the one step forward now, rather than the two steps backwards, to get a better start, later. Grant had a history of attacking after major assaults by the enemy.
As Gary noted, attacking after Pickett's Charge would have been entirely in character for Grant. While even though, I think he might, have hesitated and delayed, because of the constraints of the proximity of Lincoln and Stanton, I noted that there was at least a 50/50 chance that Grant would have counter attacked immediately and would not have been surprised if he had, because he had done it before in , roughtly, similar situations.
Lee as a born and bred Mississippian, fighting in Ms, is an imaginary construct with, practically, No relationship with history, logic or rationality.
Okay....Lee at Vicksburg. Real person, real place. Why do people refuse to discuss this "what if"? A don't tell me that it wouldn't happen because he was from VA.
__________________ I was gratified to be able to answer promptly. I said I don't know.
-Mark Twain
Because nothing is known about a Ms Lee, he never existed, before we could discuss his actions, we would have to construct a whole life, to help explain why you or I think he would do one thing rather than another during the war and/or any particular battle.
We can rationally discuss, the real Lee being in Ms, because we know his life history and can make rational deduction's as to how might have reacted to certain situations, because we know how he did react to similar situations in real life. But with a person who never actually existed, how do we know or even surmise how this artificial construct would, in fact, react to any situation, except by pure guess work?
Oh for the love of Pete! We can say that with your "what if" regarding Julia Grant. I could say that he'd ZNEVER go to Gburg because of his devotion to Julia! For the love of humanity. Put you over rated Lee in the western theater. Again, you prove my point. Lee/ANV enthusiasts will nit pick reasons that Lee couldn't be in any western situation and yet I constantly see Grant vs Lee at Gburg (not Ft Donelson for example) Jackson vs Sherman at Chancelorvill (heaven forbid we should choose Sholih). I think it is a unfair and blind to adopt a "civil war revolves around the ANV" attitude. Personally I think the ANV actually did a mediocre job of battles (except for Chancelorville) and to put Grant in any situation against them, well, he would've and did, whip their butts.
__________________ I was gratified to be able to answer promptly. I said I don't know.
-Mark Twain
30thil, your original post, mentions a Lee born in Mississippi, such a person never existed. IF you want to talk of Rob't E. Lee 'from' Va., 'in' the state of Mississippi, then that would be a 'what if' question for another thread, not this one.
However, If Lee were sent to Mississippi, from Lee's historical writings and actions, a logical case can be made that Lee would have been reluctant to go to Ms and would, probably have been ineffective, as he would have no real confidence of success nor any wish to remain in Ms any longer than necessary, away from his beloved Va. Southrons might choose other historical based assumptions to write a different scenario, but both scenario's requires some knowledge of historical facts on which to base those scenarios.
A Mississippi born Lee never existed there are no historical facts on which base any suppositions about him, of any kind.
P.S. I happen to agree that Grant, probably, would have kicked b..t, more often than not, in any theater or battle in the CW.
P.S. I happen to agree that Grant, probably, would have kicked b..t, more often than not, in any theater or battle in the CW.
At least until Lee got used to the idea that keeping the heck out of Grant's direct pathway was a good idea. Still, Lee and his ragtags put up a good fight.
Ole
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
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If Grant commanded....... at Gettysburg 
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