Civil War History - "What if..." DiscussionsWhat if they had attacked instead of digging in...? What if he was in charge of the army instead...? Did you ever have a "What if..." question, and you weren't sure where to post it? Here's the place to ask these speculative questions!
I believe I read on this board somewhere that Johnston was the "retreating-est" general of the war because he retreated towards Richmond and later towards Atlanta.
It remains that Johnston's retreating philosophy might have been the Confederacy's best option. Give territory, save army. On the expectation that somewhere in there, sooner or later, the saved army might have an opportunity to clip one into the bleachers.
It works for me in that feeding the army into a grinder, just because that's what army's are for, doesn't pan out. Your army is your resource; piddle that away and you have nothing. Johnston worshipped at that altar. The last, best hope of the Confederacy was the AoT.
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
It was General Joseph Johnston, not Beauregard, Davis or Lee, who led the last assembled Army of Tennessee into battle at Bentonville, North Carolina against none other than William T. Sherman. Not bad for a retreater. He didn't do such a bad job either, as the men of the South gave it one fine last effort. The army was still standing on wobbly legs when the merciful opportunity to lay down arms arrived. Joe Johnston walked out the door with his head held as high as possible. He lost, but the country survived. That's the part that counted.
Nice try, Larry. Joe was the designated goat. Sitting in Richmond were those who assigned JEJ the cleanup duty. JEJ managed the situation with as much dignity as might be expected from someone whose butt was kicked around with regularity by foes as well as "friends." He wasn't good enough to win for the Confederacy, but he was good enough to accept its defeat. C'est la guerre. C'est la vie.(Pardon my extremely bad French)
__________________ I never knew a man who wished to be himself a slave. Consider if you know any good thing that no man desires for himself. A. Lincoln
Understanding the fact that Johnston had already commanded the ANV, if Lee had been KIA - is it not likely that Johnston would have been placed in command before Jackson?
I'm talking late '62.
Jackson was a performer, but would his skills elevate him to army command?
I think unlikely.
Everyone pretty much knows that Davis truly tried to rule over the Confederate strategy - seeking unattainable goals. But could Johnston have pulled the Federa punk card by sustaining the newly devised trench tactics and causing a stalemate that would result in none other than tens of thousands of Federal casualties that would add to the already growing dissapproval of the war?
Nice try, Larry. Joe was the designated goat. Sitting in Richmond were those who assigned JEJ the cleanup duty. )
Ole, the battle at Bentonville was managed mostly by Lee and Johnston. The Confederate command was seen slithering through Salisbury, NC a couple of weeks earlier on their way to meet the 13th TN US Cavalry down in North Georgia. That last fight was for the pride of the men involved, too stubborn or dumb to quit.
The war could not have last little more than a year. Richmond was the most important industrial war site for the Confederacy. The U.S. would then use it resources to get an early attack against Atlanta and Georgia and Confederate supply resources in Alabama.
Understanding the fact that Johnston had already commanded the ANV, if Lee had been KIA - is it not likely that Johnston would have been placed in command before Jackson?
I'm talking late '62.
Jackson was a performer, but would his skills elevate him to army command?
I think unlikely.
I have long thought that Jackson's secretive nature would have been incompatible with handling an Army of 50,000+. However, I don't think that was apparent to those who would be making the decision, and there would be a huge public support for the idea of Jackson -- hero of Bull Run, the Valley, and 2nd Manassas.
I don't think Longstreet would have been chosen over Jackson.
Johnston considered himself insufficiently recovered from his wounds to command in the field in the Winter of 1862-63. If you want to look at a scenario where Lee died at Seven Days, 2nd Manassas, or Antietam, I do not think Johnston would have been available.
If someone from outside the ANV is to be selected in Fall 1862, the most likely candidates would be Beauregard, Bragg, and E. Kirby Smith. Bragg had never served in Virginia, but the other two had both been present at 1st Manassas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunny
Everyone pretty much knows that Davis truly tried to rule over the Confederate strategy - seeking unattainable goals. But could Johnston have pulled the Federa punk card by sustaining the newly devised trench tactics and causing a stalemate that would result in none other than tens of thousands of Federal casualties that would add to the already growing dissapproval of the war?
I don't think Johnston would have done better than Lee at Fredricksburg or Chancellorsville -- or in the fighting in the Overland Campaign or the Siege of Petersburg-Richmond against Grant. All that really leaves is Gettysburg.
A defensive strategy ended up meaning that the resource-poor Confederacy ended up fighting virtually the entire war on their own territory with devastating effects -- and the closest the Confederacy came to independensce was probably in the Fall of 1862, when Lee, Bragg, Price & Van Dorn were all on the move northwards, acting offensively. The problem then was that they needed a big, flashy victory. Instead they got Antietam, Perryville, Iuka & Corinth.
What they needed was to keep this war out of their heartland. Once it got there, things rapidly fell apart.
If instead of Lee being killed in the Seven Days Battle, we posit that Johnston had Not been wounded at Seven Pines, then what would have happened? Because with his not being wounded the battle would have continued, is it possible that Seven Pines would have grown into a significant Confederate victory? (after all, it was McClellan in command of the AoP, being forced to fight before he was ready....Again)
This early in his career (as an Army Commander) is it possible that a clear cut victory at Seven Pines would have encouraged Johnston (and more importantly, probably have destroyed what was left of McClellans always fragile confidence and nerve) to plan a further advance, Or would he have seen the victory as a heaven sent opportunity to complete a successful, organized retreat from Richmon, unimpeded?
Like all "What If...." questions, change one fact the permutations of other facts are altered (seemingly)exponentially.
If instead of Lee being killed in the Seven Days Battle, we posit that Johnston had Not been wounded at Seven Pines, then what would have happened?
This early in his career (as an Army Commander) is it possible that a clear cut victory at Seven Pines would have encouraged Johnston (and more importantly, probably have destroyed what was left of McClellans always fragile confidence and nerve) to plan a further advance, Or would he have seen the victory as a heaven sent opportunity to complete a successful, organized retreat from Richmon, unimpeded?
Like all "What If...." questions, change one fact the permutations of other facts are altered (seemingly)exponentially.
There is one thing we need to keep in mind here though, Johnston's retreats were done when faced with numerically superior forces that had strong morale (ie Sherman in the Atlanta Campaign). I think in this case Johnston would have done the reverse.
option 1: head straight for DC/McDowell
option 2: tear off North to draw the Federal forces north after him in a bid to pressure the north into surrendering.
option 3: send significant forces west to cripple Grant, Rosey/Buell
Respectfully,
Matt
__________________ Great-Great Grand Nephew of George H. Pfau, 4th NJ Vol Infantry
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